Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part V

[LondonJohn]

Any decision that has been before a court of law is in the public domain (with a few exceptions, such as a Family Court).

Why do you believe that only Bollyn (in 2012) is the only person who could have known about the two Egyptians?

Well, seeing as the court ruling had nothing whatsoever to do with Sweden "disappearing" anyone....

So, Vixen: from whom/where did you get the notion that Sweden "disappeared" those two Egyptians (which you and your source are both using to suggest that Sweden was capable of "disappearing" the Estonians as well)?

And why are you continuing to lie about it?

 

[LondonJohn]

Utter rot. Now that Spitfire has pointed out that Bollyn has a deluded idea that there is a granfalloon group of people who are running the world, bringing down Christianity and mocking up terror attacks, such as 9/11, I will obviously avoid him like the plague from now on.

***Laughing dog emoji x3***

Are you incapable of evaluating sources properly - especially where these sources are a) previously unknown to you and b) well outside the normal scope of trusted sources - before considering them credible/reliable?

Or do you always require others to do that due diligence work for you (when those others are doing nothing more than the work you yourself could & should have done up-front)?

Pathetic. Truly, deeply pathetic on your part, Vixen.

 

[LondonJohn]

Has anyone ever seen the Pope and Johnathan Price in the same room together?

That is the level of "argument" you have sunk to, Vixen. Bollyn and Bjorkman don't even look alike.

Oh, I think that Vixen's "in the same room" gambit was an attempt to demonstrate that she shares the same low opinion about untrustworthy sources as the decent, rigorous, intellectually-honest posters in this thread.

As an attempt to misdirect about her own use of those two people as trustworthy sources.

 

[LondonJohn]

I see nothing wrong with critiquing the Middle East: pro-Israel, pro-Palestine <shrug>. However, to actually believe there is a conspiracy to bombard the Christian world with pornography is just plain bonkers.

I disagree that the issue of the two Egyptians is Bollyn's copyrighted work. He doesn't have ownership of the news. I am not sure what his motive is, an American (?) guy getting involved in the Estonia disaster. I can only imagine it is the neo-fascist strategy of infiltrating various protest groups and inveigling themselves like cuckoo's eggs. For example, there was a lot of ant-vaxxer protesters in London, a vague meeting of disparate groups and individuals, so course, the far right was in there pretending to be one of them, deliberately causing trouble with the police and agitating civil unrest.

So who/what was your source for the nonsense about Sweden "disappearing" those Egyptians, Vixen?

And why do you keep lying about it?

 

[LondonJohn]

I mistook it for an ordinary newspaper because that is what it looks like when you click on it.

*runs out of laughing dog emojis*

 

[LondonJohn]

Absolutely. Reads like an Anders Brevik manisfesto, except instead of Muslims, we have Jews.

So why did you reflexively dispute the notion that Bollyn held disgusting anti-Semitic views..... when you could have found this information for yourself incredibly easily?

Well, Vixen: why? And why do you keep lying about relying on Bollyn as a trusted source re the Egyptians (or, at worst, relying on someone who themselves relies on Bollyn)?

 

[abaddon]

Yes, I noticed that with regards to the “Through German Eyes” column that was cited as the source for the claim that the Times had embedded reporters eavesdropping on German soldiers at the battle of Stalingrad. You only needed to read beyond the headline for it to become obvious that it was a round-up of the German media, not first-hand reports by reporters on the ground.

I must be honest. I have lost the will to chase the random links provided anymore. It just is not worth the effort.

Outright mockery seems the way to go. I have already wasted more time on the nonsense than I should to the point that I don't care anymore.

What annoys me the most is that our proponent will faithfully promise not to cite Byjorkman or Bollyn ever again. We all know our proponent will, but will merely leave out the names as if that makes some difference. As though nobody could tell.

That is absurd. Does there exist anyone who is unaware what MTV actually is?

 

[LondonJohn]

I would never rely on the call of a crowd who often are just a baying mob who enjoy the sport of chasing someone down. It's like being lost and then following the crowd thinking they are going the same way and then discovering they were not at all.

Wait. So, what? You believe people would tell you lies (and conspire with others to tell lies) about things like this, simply because they hold an opposite position in the debate from you, and that they'll resort to any and all means - including dishonest means - in an attempt to contradict or discredit you???

Astonishing, and disgusting. And I strongly suspect that in fact, this reflects the way in which you choose to conduct debate.

 

[abaddon]

MTV in this context is "Mainos-TV", the oldest commercial TV station in Finland that nowadays has also a news service on the internet.

And I will give you kudos for telling me something I never knew, and had no reason to do so. I thank you.

Not sure Vixen is too happy about your presence in this thread, but we shall have to find that as we go.

 

[LondonJohn]

It showed that the two Egyptians' plight was in the public domain.

God almighty, Vixen.

Of course the Egyptians' plight was "in the public domain".

But the Egyptians' plight was not the plight that you and your source claim.

 

[LondonJohn]

You have mentioned the 'B' name SEVEN times within the last page. You are fixated by someone who doesn't even register on my radar.

That's a lie, Vixen.

 

[LondonJohn]

"Money for nothing and my chicks for free"!

Maybe Vixen took the "That ain't working" line as a tacit instruction not to do any work understanding/evaluating her key sources for reliability, credibility and honesty?

 

[Reformed Offlian]

Bollyn was not the first to draw attention to Sweden's so-called 'disappeared'. It has been a meme in that country for a long time.

Here is an article reproduced from Svenska Dagbladet on June 20, 2017:

Bollyn's article dates from January 22, 2005. He hasn't even been active since 2007, AFAICT. What earlier source do you have for the claim that Sweden disappeared the two Egyptian deportees?

 

[Reformed Offlian]

Utter rot. Now that Spitfire has pointed out that Bollyn has a deluded idea that there is a granfalloon group of people who are running the world, bringing down Christianity and mocking up terror attacks, such as 9/11, I will obviously avoid him like the plague from now on.

Having disavowed Bollyn, what other, independent source do you now have left for the claim that Sweden engaged in enforced disappearance when they deported the two Egyptians in 2002?

 

[Axxman300]

He was supposedly seen in an ambulance with the Huddinge code on it (supplied by a Russian tv company, so not sure how authentic that is) and also was seen getting out of an ambulance at Turku hospital. Lots of people saw this and recognised Piht. He was described as being the fourth person getting out. When researchers searched the news archives, it was found the picture suddenly now cut off just as the fourth person was getting out.

No.

This was just covered. Nobody involved with the rescue saw Piht. Some Germany watching a video said he saw Piht, and it became a rumor that continued to be reported as true for a period of time until the record was solid. So not, nobody saw him.

The best parallel is the Jessica Lynch fiasco wherein a reporter with the Miami Herald based in a CENTCOM press-pool in Kuwait quoted a back-channel source who told him she had been captured after fighting it out with Iraqi soldiers. Later, Stars & Stripes corrected the story, and reported she had been knocked unconscious when her vehicle rear-ended the one in front of it, and the soldier shooting it out with the Iraqis was some other dude in her unit.

All that has to happen is to have a "reliable source" report something as fact, and the other news services will run with it without double-checking. Piht was not rescued.

 

[Axxman300]

Er, the story of Piht's disappearance has been running since 1994. Did you not see the James Meek or the Colin Adamson citations from British newspapers of the day?

Yes, and it's been wrong since 1994.

The big question would be why keep his rescue secret?

He wasn't in command of the Estonia that night. If I had to guess his fate, I like to think he was doing his best to help out.

 

[Vixen]

No.

This was just covered. Nobody involved with the rescue saw Piht. Some Germany watching a video said he saw Piht, and it became a rumor that continued to be reported as true for a period of time until the record was solid. So not, nobody saw him.

The best parallel is the Jessica Lynch fiasco wherein a reporter with the Miami Herald based in a CENTCOM press-pool in Kuwait quoted a back-channel source who told him she had been captured after fighting it out with Iraqi soldiers. Later, Stars & Stripes corrected the story, and reported she had been knocked unconscious when her vehicle rear-ended the one in front of it, and the soldier shooting it out with the Iraqis was some other dude in her unit.

All that has to happen is to have a "reliable source" report something as fact, and the other news services will run with it without double-checking. Piht was not rescued.

The Estonian government officials believes the Estonians as originally listed to be 'missing':

In its report of 19 December 2006, the Estonian Parliamentary Commission recommended that the fate of the missing Estonians be investigated further. From their report, Chapter VII:

"3. Proceeding from the fact that several persons who allegedly survived the catastrophe of the ferry Estonia are still missing, and taking into account the fact that they might have important information concerning the ferry Estonia, propose to the Government of the Republic to continue the search for these persons. "

 

[Axxman300]

I have not hitched my horse to any cart.

You have hitched your horse to a conspiracy theory that says the Estonia was not sunk by accident when the bow visor was knocked off in rough seas, but was sunk either by an act of sabotage, or after a collision with a submarine.

These theories have been advanced by a disgraced German reporter, with help from a marketing wing of a German ship-building company. This new investigation is based on the "discovery" of a rupture in the hull made by a "documentary film maker" on an expedition to "reveal the truth". This film maker is advancing the conspiracy theory, the proof is the footage of the fracture in the hull - he cropped it. He obviously edited out the images of the rocky outcrop from the final piece because it would have been obvious that the rupture was caused by impact with the sea floor.

For some reason you need the MS Estonia to have been sunk as a result of some dark conspiracy involving Bildt, and Clinton, and other western powers. And for some reason you need it badly enough to fill pages on this message board with poorly researched points of view, and very few facts to support them.

 

[Vixen]

It is what it is. One hour standby was what was done at the time in Sweden and Finland.
It was on one hour standby, the crew were not on the base, they came from home.
It takes a while to prepare a Super Puma. It was in the air within it's alert time and took an hour flight time.

Finland's standby helicopter OH-HVG, also a Super Puma was alerted first at 01:35.
It was also on a one hour standby, that was standard at the time. It got in to the air at 02:30 and arrived at 03:05. It had less flight time because it eas closer.

You are incorrect here. The protocol (today and yesterday) is fifteen minutes for the initial helicopter/s.

 

[Vixen]

Sure. I was just lazy. The problem here is that Vixen reads "Swedish disappeared" and thinks it refers to "people disappeared by the Swedes" when it, in fact, it refers to "Swedish people who have been disappeared by others". And she cannot work that out for some reason.

This style of thing happens quite often. Read the headline and the byline, then assume the rest of the article must agree with whatever the CT du jour is being proposed.

When attentive people actually read the whole article, as Corporal Jones would say, they don't like it up 'em.

No. The Swedish intelligence forces knew where those downed airmen from 1952 were all along. The were in Swedish waters, just east of Gotland.

No flannel please about gulags and Russian territory.