Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part V

[Jack by the hedge]

You do know that Nauvo is quite nearby Utö, so just an extra few minutes for the helicopters.

What's your point? That there were places Y74 could refuel closer than Berga? So what? It couldn't replace its exhausted or injured crew at Nauvo.

 

[Mojo]

Bollyn was not the first to draw attention to Sweden's so-called 'disappeared'. It has been a meme in that country for a long time.

Here is an article reproduced from Svenska Dagbladet on June 20, 2017:

Sweden’s Disappeared: The Search for Justice and the Right to the Truth
Von Susanne Berger

For the Swedish victims of enforced disappearance and their families, the legal Right to the Truth is only meaningful if governments and international courts are committed to its enforcement.

Did you read any further than that?

 

[Jack by the hedge]

What does that have to do with Svensson.

The article you linked was from here, footnote no. 8.

...which seems to quote directly from that earlier Aftonbladet article 'ten years ago':

Either that or the TT draws on the JAIC, which draws on the Aftonbladet article.

There's nothing at all in there which indicates the Svensson quote is lifted from that day's Aftonbladet. It says "he said afterwards". Anything more is just wishful thinking.

 

[abaddon]

Feel free to help us with that fixation by citing any credible, independent source for any of the relevant claims. As long as Bjorkman is your go-to source, your interlocutors are going to keep bringing up his name, especially when your attempts to minimize his role as your authority require such corrective emphasis.

Expect a similar outcome with Bollyn.

Bollyn was not the first to draw attention to Sweden's so-called 'disappeared'. It has been a meme in that country for a long time.

Here is an article reproduced from Svenska Dagbladet on June 20, 2017:

Sweden’s Disappeared: The Search for Justice and the Right to the Truth
Von Susanne Berger

For the Swedish victims of enforced disappearance and their families, the legal Right to the Truth is only meaningful if governments and international courts are committed to its enforcement.

That article says nothing at all about Sweden "disappearing" anyone. It claims the Russians did it all, holding some of them in Lubyanka.

Either you did not read it or did not understand it.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Yes, a whole two hours after Estonia disappeared off the radar with >500 stricken Swedish nationals on board.


Captain Swoop: "That's fine."

It is what it is. One hour standby was what was done at the time in Sweden and Finland.
It was on one hour standby, the crew were not on the base, they came from home.
It takes a while to prepare a Super Puma. It was in the air within it's alert time and took an hour flight time.

Finland's standby helicopter OH-HVG, also a Super Puma was alerted first at 01:35.
It was also on a one hour standby, that was standard at the time. It got in to the air at 02:30 and arrived at 03:05. It had less flight time because it eas closer.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

Bollyn was not the first to draw attention to Sweden's so-called 'disappeared'. It has been a meme in that country for a long time.

Here is an article reproduced from Svenska Dagbladet on June 20, 2017:

Nope. That report does not mention the Egyptians, and discusses Swedes who had been disappeared by the Russians, not people Sweden disappeared.

Are you not reading your sources again?

 

[abaddon]

MTV in this context is "Mainos-TV", the oldest commercial TV station in Finland that nowadays has also a news service on the internet.

Gosh, one might think that this would be necessary to include. Maybe Vixen is simply unaware of what everyone understands MTV to be. It makes no material difference, though. Either way, Vixen has contradicted her own claims.

 

[Reformed Offlian]

What does that have to do with Svensson.

The article you linked was from here, footnote no. 8.

Are you talking about the TT writeup or are we talking about a wikipedia article?

...which seems to quote directly from that earlier Aftonbladet article 'ten years ago':

The Aftonblad article doesn't say that Svensson retrieved seven survivors and one dead body. The JAIC report does.

Either that or the TT draws on the JAIC, which draws on the Aftonbladet article.

Ah, so you're referring to the TT article, not a wiki.

The JAIC draws on the Aftonblad article? Really? Why would you assume that?

The only people drawing on the article in question are you and Bjorkman.

Where does Aftonbladet say that Svensson rescued exactly seven people?
Neither you nor Bjorkman got that number from it.

I thought the JAIC only credited Svensson with one rescue?

 

[Reformed Offlian]

Bollyn was not the first to draw attention to Sweden's so-called 'disappeared'. It has been a meme in that country for a long time.

Here is an article reproduced from Svenska Dagbladet on June 20, 2017:

About Swedish subjects being disappeared by another country.

Do you have any other sources saying the Egyptians who were deported in 2002 were disappeared?

 

[Mojo]

That article says nothing at all about Sweden "disappearing" anyone. It claims the Russians did it all, holding some of them in Lubyanka.

Not entirely the Russians: there are also Swedes disappeared by the Argentines, Eritreans, Chinese security forces in Thailand, and Al-Qaida. The Swedish government evidently has a longer reach than any of us imagined.

Either you did not read it or did not understand it.

Or just hopes that we won’t read it.

 

[Mojo]

MTV in this context is "Mainos-TV", the oldest commercial TV station in Finland that nowadays has also a news service on the internet.

Remarkably, having mistaken it for whichever MTV she means, Vixen managed to correctly identify it when she originally posted the link:

Here is a Finnish newspaper for a start: MV Lehti

 

[abaddon]

Not entirely the Russians: there are also Swedes disappeared by the Argentines, Eritreans, Chinese security forces in Thailand, and Al-Qaida. The Swedish government evidently has a longer reach than any of us imagined.

Sure. I was just lazy. The problem here is that Vixen reads "Swedish disappeared" and thinks it refers to "people disappeared by the Swedes" when it, in fact, it refers to "Swedish people who have been disappeared by others". And she cannot work that out for some reason.

Or just hopes that we won’t read it.

This style of thing happens quite often. Read the headline and the byline, then assume the rest of the article must agree with whatever the CT du jour is being proposed.

When attentive people actually read the whole article, as Corporal Jones would say, they don't like it up 'em.

 

[Mojo]

Sure. I was just lazy. The problem here is that Vixen reads "Swedish disappeared" and thinks it refers to "people disappeared by the Swedes" when it, in fact, it refers to "Swedish people who have been disappeared by others". And she cannot work that out for some reason.

This style of thing happens quite often. Read the headline and the byline, then assume the rest of the article must agree with whatever the CT du jour is being proposed.

When attentive people actually read the whole article, as Corporal Jones would say, they don't like it up 'em.

Yes, I noticed that with regards to the “Through German Eyes” column that was cited as the source for the claim that the Times had embedded reporters eavesdropping on German soldiers at the battle of Stalingrad. You only needed to read beyond the headline for it to become obvious that it was a round-up of the German media, not first-hand reports by reporters on the ground.

 

[LondonJohn]

Your assumption is incorrect. Swedish helicopters dropped off their survivors at Utö. AFAIAA only one helicopter carrying nine and apparently one carrying one, went direct to Huddinge.

One guy named Altti, who lives in Stockholm, says he was in one of those helicopters, although not put on the list. He says the helicopter stopped in an airfield and all kinds of weird things went on.

Helsingin Sanomat 1.10.1994 reported Danish and Swedish newspapers saying Piht had gone missing from a Helsinki hospital. That makes sense, as he may have travelled with Bildt, Aho and Laar (the Prime Ministers of Sweden, Finland and Estonia) when they flew to Turku to interview Sillaste (and probably Piht, too) and Piht then flew to Helsinki, on the same plane as them, where the JAIC was set up.

HS

Vixen. For god's sake, STOP USING NEWSPAPER REPORTS FROM THE FIRST DAY(S) AFTER THE DISASTER AS SOME SORT OF RELIABLE SOURCE OF INFORMATION.

Do you even comprehend why I'm saying this? Do you have an ounce of intellectual honesty?

Why do you keep doing this, Vixen? Do you actually care about having a proper, well-informed debate? When you keep going back to these newspaper reports from days 1-5 following the accident, it's clear that either a) you genuinely (still) have no idea how/why those reports cannot be trusted to be reliable, or b) you do understand this, yet continue in your attempts to misdirect. There is no third option. So which of those two is it, Vixen?

 

[LondonJohn]

I didn't register the author nor did I know who he was.

So from where did you get the notion related to the Egyptians, Vixen?

Because it's a racing certainty that you didn't come up with it all by yourself.

So you gleaned it from some source, didn't you?

And which source was it?

 

[LondonJohn]

Who knows what the truth is about this person. Fact is I am not interested in the cult of personality. Full stop.

What the hell has this to do with the "cult of personality".

It is entirely to do with 1) some crackpot deciding that those Egyptians were "disappeared" by Sweden (when in fact Sweden did nothing of the sort), and 2) you finding what this someone had written, and assimilating it into your own crazy theory.

So, once again: who was your source wrt the Egyptians, their "disappearance" (not), and the notion that this serves as some sort of template for Sweden to have "disappeared" the Estonians (not)?

Why will you not answer this question, VIxen?

 

[LondonJohn]

How convenient that there isn't any evidence for the claims, it has all mysteriously disappeared, even the claimed German reports were seized by German security forces.

How far does this conspiracy run? Why wasn't the seizing of news footage by the 'security forces' reported in Germany, it would be a big scandal if they were acting on behalf of a foreign government to sensor German news organisations.

It's absolutely pitiful, isn't it?

Funny how it's always the most ridiculous CTs which are "supported" by this sort of thing - "Lots of people remember hearing that....", "A radio/TV station is said to have reported that....", "Someone was overheard saying that...." - where there's no actual tangible evidence backing up those claims.

See: most reasonable, intellectually-honest people - even if they held opinions bordering on CTs - would look at this sort of "evidence" and rather easily conclude, at the very least, that it was in fact no evidence at all. And they would then start to question whether the conclusions to which this "evidence" pertains can actually stand up at all.

Not Vixen, though.........

 

[LondonJohn]

He denied in court he was ever editor-in-chief of that paper.

LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

And Ian Huntley denied in court that he'd killed those two young girls.

Your attempts here are pitiful, laughable and ridiculous.

 

[abaddon]

"Money for nothing and my chicks for free"!

God I am old enough to have bought that single.

 

[LondonJohn]

In this context, the idea that one idealised person is the possessor of some kind of esoteric knowledge; his or her followers lap up every word like pearls of wisdom which they can quote like shining drops of molten gold off by heart, whenever the occasion demands it.

The idea that I am a follower of some not-even-particularly bright or literate person is just so funny.

Well, absolutely. Seeing as how your contributions to this thread have been bristling with intelligence and information-literacy........