Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part V

[Steve]

Where does it say that?

Was that before or after:

"At one point the rescue man had to be brought up be- cause his flippers had been torn off by the waves."

It's from here:

https://onse.fi/estonia/chapt17_1.html#6

"At about 0630 hrs the helicopter fuel supply at Utö ran out. After this, the helicopters flew the survivors and the deceased to Hanko or Nauvo, where refuelling took place. The fuel supply at Hanko, in turn, ran out at about 1000 hrs, and five helicopters had to wait for half an hour for a new supply."

Your quotation about the rescue man's flippers is from what the report says about the actions of helicopter Y74. Since it is a quote from a paragraph whose immediately preceding sentence is "At 0715 hrs Y 74 found a raft with three survivors, who were winched up into the helicopter" I suggest the flipper incident was soon after 07:15.

I think you can probably work out whether 06:30 is before or after 07:15.

Will you look at that Vixen. A link to a reputable source that actually supports what was posted. You should try this sometime. Do it enough times and people just might, maybe, start to take a few of your more sane ideas a little more seriously.

 

[Reformed Offlian]

Actually the source Reformed Offlian provided as a wikipedia footnote as to why Kenneth Svensson got the Swedish Defence Forces Gold Medal of Merit with Sword, also seems to quote the same Aftonbladet article.

I'd still like to know what you're talking about here. The wiki I recall linking was this one

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newspaper_of_record

Which doesn't say anything about Aftonbladet or Svensson.

Could you be thinking of a different poster, or a different article?

 

[Reformed Offlian]

You have mentioned the 'B' name SEVEN times within the last page. You are fixated by someone who doesn't even register on my radar.

Feel free to help us with that fixation by citing any credible, independent source for any of the relevant claims. As long as Bjorkman is your go-to source, your interlocutors are going to keep bringing up his name, especially when your attempts to minimize his role as your authority require such corrective emphasis.

Expect a similar outcome with Bollyn.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

...
Notice that the pilot made the decision to fly to Hanko, I suppose he should have been castigated for not following the OSC commands.

Yes, I saw that and thanks for the extra details.

The window of opportunity for Vixen's undocumented flight is pretty well shut. Especially since her explanation of the reason for its secrecy has abandoned any idea that the flight was originally intended to be secret, but rather that it was a straightforward search and rescue flight which just so happened to rescue the 9 officers, and only later in hindsight was it decided to erase all record of it.

 

[Andy_Ross]

From JAIC:

"Q 97 (Super Puma)

The Swedish stand-by helicopter Q 97 took off from Visby at 0250 hrs, arriving at the scene of the accident at 0350 hrs. The OSC requested the helicopter to pick up as many people as possible from the sea.

On its first flight Q 97 rescued six survivors from the keels of two upside-down lifeboats. As instructed by the OSC, Q 97 flew them to Utö, where it landed at 0500 hrs. During the stop the crew called ARCC Arlanda, informing about the situation at the scene and asking for as many helicopters as possible." 7.5.5


This was the first 'urgent' helicopter to arrive according to JAIC.

Because at the time the standby for SAR helicopters was one hour.

There was a standby SAR already in the air, Q 99, the stand-by helicopter at Ronneby was already on another rescue mission just south of Öland, where it rescued two survivors from a fishing vessel.
This mission finished at 0238 hrs. Ordered immediately to proceed to the scene of the accident, Q 99 landed at 0325 hrs at Visby for refuelling and maintenance of equipment and took off from Visby at 0355 hrs, reaching the scene of the accident at 0440 hrs.

 

[Marras]

Why on earth would anyone get their news from MTV anyway?

MTV in this context is "Mainos-TV", the oldest commercial TV station in Finland that nowadays has also a news service on the internet.

 

[Vixen]

It's from here:

https://onse.fi/estonia/chapt17_1.html#6

"At about 0630 hrs the helicopter fuel supply at Utö ran out. After this, the helicopters flew the survivors and the deceased to Hanko or Nauvo, where refuelling took place. The fuel supply at Hanko, in turn, ran out at about 1000 hrs, and five helicopters had to wait for half an hour for a new supply."

Your quotation about the rescue man's flippers is from what the report says about the actions of helicopter Y74. Since it is a quote from a paragraph whose immediately preceding sentence is "At 0715 hrs Y 74 found a raft with three survivors, who were winched up into the helicopter" I suggest the flipper incident was soon after 07:15.

I think you can probably work out whether 06:30 is before or after 07:15.


Actually, your quote is not quite the same as mine: My copy/paste says "because" where your copy/paste says "be- cause". I infer that you are quoting from a secondary source and not the report itself. Perhaps that explains why you didn't know what time the flipper incident happened even though it says so right in the same paragraph.

It was from the report.

Nauvo is just a short journey away from Utö and is between it and Parainen.

 

[Vixen]

First Swedish helicopter alerted was the Standby RAS helicopter Q97 at Visby. It was a Super Puma. It was on one hour standby. It was alerted at 02:07 by ARCC Arlanda. It was in the air at 02:50 and was on scene at 03:50. It rescued 15 survivors.
On its first flight Q 97 rescued six survivors from the keels of two upside-down lifeboats. As instructed by the OSC, Q 97 flew them to Utö, where it landed at 0500 hrs. During the stop the crew called ARCC Arlanda, informing about the situation at the scene and asking for as many helicopters as possible.
After refuelling, Q 97 returned at 0540 hrs to the scene and rescued nine survivors, five from a liferaft and four from the water. They were in very poor condition. The pilot decided to take them directly to Hanko on the mainland. Q 97 landed at a sports field in Hanko at 0735 hrs, and local residents quickly summoned ambulances to the field. The crew was advised to fly to the Hanko coast guard station landing field, where they could refuel.
Q 97 took off from Hanko for the accident scene at 0810 hrs and returned to Hanko at 1050 hrs. After refuelling Q 97 returned to its base and finished the mission at 1615 hrs.

Notice that the pilot made the decision to fly to Hanko, I suppose he should have been castigated for not following the OSC commands.

Hanko was the OSC designated destination for those with fractures as it has a specialised unit that deals with fractures.

. It was announced this afternoon that no more survivors were coming. A doctor and nurse were sent from Ekenäs to Tulliniemi in Hanko to receive patients brought there by helicopter. They had to assess the condition of the patients on site and send them to the right place of treatment.
However, not much could be done. By the time Dr. Jukka Leinonen got to Hanko, 14 live and one dead had been brought there. After that, six more dead people were admitted to the hospital.

HS 29.9.1994

 

[Andy_Ross]

Where does it say that?

Was that before or after:

"At one point the rescue man had to be brought up be- cause his flippers had been torn off by the waves."

Section 7.5.4

Maintenance
At 0300 hrs MRCC Turku sent a tank truck to Nauvo to establish a refuelling site for helicopters. Later during the morning a tank truck was also sent to Hanko to replenish the supply there.
Utö had a permanent refuelling facility for maritime rescue helicopters. The oil spill exercise that had been conducted during the previous evening had depleted this, however, and a new supply did not arrive until the following day. Meanwhile, the refuelling took place in Hanko and Nauvo.
At 1000 hrs the Hanko fuel supply was exhausted and later during the morning a tank truck was sent there.
Meals for the helicopter crews had also been arranged at the refuelling sites.

Have you read the report?

 

[Andy_Ross]

Citation please it ran out of fuel.

From the report section 7.5.4

Maintenance
At 0300 hrs MRCC Turku sent a tank truck to Nauvo to establish a refuelling site for helicopters. Later during the morning a tank truck was also sent to Hanko to replenish the supply there.
Utö had a permanent refuelling facility for maritime rescue helicopters. The oil spill exercise that had been conducted during the previous evening had depleted this, however, and a new supply did not arrive until the following day. Meanwhile, the refuelling took place in Hanko and Nauvo.
At 1000 hrs the Hanko fuel supply was exhausted and later during the morning a tank truck was sent there.
Meals for the helicopter crews had also been arranged at the refuelling sites.

 

[Vixen]

Will you look at that Vixen. A link to a reputable source that actually supports what was posted. You should try this sometime. Do it enough times and people just might, maybe, start to take a few of your more sane ideas a little more seriously.

You do know that Nauvo is quite nearby Utö, so just an extra few minutes for the helicopters.

 

[abaddon]

Citation please it ran out of fuel.

Sure.

JAIC 7.5.4

Maintenance

At 0300 hrs MRCC Turku sent a tank truck to Nauvo to establish a refuelling site for helicopters. Later during the morning a tank truck was also sent to Hanko to replenish the supply there.
Utö had a permanent refuelling facility for maritime rescue helicopters. The oil spill exercise that had been conducted during the previous evening had depleted this, however, and a new supply did not arrive until the following day. Meanwhile, the refuelling took place in Hanko and Nauvo.
At 1000 hrs the Hanko fuel supply was exhausted and later during the morning a tank truck was sent there.
Meals for the helicopter crews had also been arranged at the refuelling sites.

Think you can read this reference for a change?

 

[Andy_Ross]

Hanko was the OSC designated destination for those with fractures as it has a specialised unit that deals with fractures.


HS 29.9.1994

Q 97 was the first to arrive. It was the pilot that made the decision.

The pilot decided to take them directly to Hanko on the mainland.

 

[Andy_Ross]

You do know that Nauvo is quite nearby Utö, so just an extra few minutes for the helicopters.

Your point being?

You do know there was a backup of aircraft waiting for refueling?

 

[Vixen]

I'd still like to know what you're talking about here. The wiki I recall linking was this one

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newspaper_of_record

Which doesn't say anything about Aftonbladet or Svensson.

Could you be thinking of a different poster, or a different article?

What does that have to do with Svensson.

The article you linked was from here, footnote no. 8.

Ensign Kenneth Svensson, surface rescuer at the sinking of M / S Estonia 27 September 1994, awarded 15 January 1996. [ 8 ]

...which seems to quote directly from that earlier Aftonbladet article 'ten years ago':

After ten years: No one has forgotten Estonia
Ten years after the Estonia disaster. Life has gone on for survivors, relatives and everyone else who was affected.

TT has investigated what some of the main characters do today.

HEAD OF GOVERNMENT. Carl Bildt, Esko Aho and Mart Laar were heads of government in Sweden, Finland and Estonia at the time of the sinking.
On Wednesday afternoon, September 28, 1994, less than a day after the disaster, the three gathered for a joint press conference in Turku.

SURFACE RESCUERS. Survivors were a professional group that came into focus during the rescue work. Kenneth Svensson, then ensign at the helicopter division in Berga, is one of these heroes. He rescued eight people from the raging sea, seven of whom survived.

"I will never forget the visions I encountered when I went down to those in need," he said afterwards.

When the winch for the helicopter got into trouble, he at one point dived into the water without a lifeline to try to save another person in need. Kenneth Svensson was later awarded the Defense Medal of Merit in gold.

He still serves as a lifeguard, now at the Malmen helicopter flotilla outside Linköping. (TT)

Either that or the TT draws on the JAIC, which draws on the Aftonbladet article.

 

[Steve]

Will you look at that Vixen. A link to a reputable source that actually supports what was posted. You should try this sometime. Do it enough times and people just might, maybe, start to take a few of your more sane ideas a little more seriously.

You do know that Nauvo is quite nearby Utö, so just an extra few minutes for the helicopters.

But then "responses" like this that have zero to do with the post you quoted just send your credibility even further into the negative.

 

[Andy_Ross]

What does that have to do with Svensson.

The article you linked was from here, footnote no. 8.



...which seems to quote directly from that earlier Aftonbladet article 'ten years ago':



Either that or the TT draws on the JAIC, which draws on the Aftonbladet article.

You think there isn't an official record of his award and commendation?

 

[Vixen]

Feel free to help us with that fixation by citing any credible, independent source for any of the relevant claims. As long as Bjorkman is your go-to source, your interlocutors are going to keep bringing up his name, especially when your attempts to minimize his role as your authority require such corrective emphasis.

Expect a similar outcome with Bollyn.

Bollyn was not the first to draw attention to Sweden's so-called 'disappeared'. It has been a meme in that country for a long time.

Here is an article reproduced from Svenska Dagbladet on June 20, 2017:

Sweden’s Disappeared: The Search for Justice and the Right to the Truth
Von Susanne Berger

For the Swedish victims of enforced disappearance and their families, the legal Right to the Truth is only meaningful if governments and international courts are committed to its enforcement.

 

[Vixen]

Q 97 was the first to arrive. It was the pilot that made the decision.

Yes, a whole two hours after Estonia disappeared off the radar with >500 stricken Swedish nationals on board.


Captain Swoop: "That's fine."

 

[Jack by the hedge]

It was from the report.

If it wasn't from a secondary source, why does yours have the weird formatting then? I quoted the report and it doesn't have that.

https://onse.fi/estonia/chapt07_2.html Search the one mention of "flippers" on the page.