Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part V

[JayUtah]

I mistook it for an ordinary newspaper because that is what it looks like when you click on it.

What does this say about your ability to locate and recognize reliable sources of information?

You have said you are interested in getting to the bottom of the MS Estonia tragedy. How is that purpose served by your inattention to the reliability of your sources?

 

[Vixen]

What time? What time exactly do you say a Swedish helicopter could have arrived at the scene, without contacting the ships in the rescue area, and have rescued 9 people (how long would that have taken?) again without having spoken to the ships, and flown back to Huddinge? When was the captain who assumed OSC duties confirmed in that role?

JAIC report, 7.1: "at 0205 hrs MRCC Turku designated her master as the On-Scene Commander (OSC)"

MRCC Turku told Silja Europa it would arrive 'in ten minutes'. This was at 0227.

Olsson said he arrived at 0300 (he is associated with Y74)

MRCC Stockholm duty operations log starts at 0202.

Svensson told Aftonbladet he left Berga just after 0200.

When you consider that on any journey between Stockholm and Tallinn, the expected occupancy rate was 70% Swedish nationals, and the vessel was 50% Swedish owned, are you sure it is reasonable that the first Stockholm helicopter would not get there until almost 0400?

Bearing in mind MRCC had been getting tip offs from the public that something was going on in the Baltic. The first it knew was a lorry driver ringing them up. At the same time circa 0154, MRCC Stockholm was ringing MRCC Turku to find out what was going on. MRCC Turku could not get through until 0158.

Don't you feel there must surely have been a sense of urgency?

Not, 'Oh just have to give the guys an hour to get here, first'.

Especially as Berga is a sizeable naval base.

 

[Vixen]

Of course, there is the point that if the captain/pilot of any aircraft is at bingo fuel, they absolutely have the right to tell the OSC to foxtrot oscar and RTB immediately.

There was a refuelling station especially for the helicopters at Utö.

 

[Vixen]

Will you also be avoiding Björkman "like the plague?"

I know next to nothing about the guy. However, from a page someone cited it would appear he is a 'denier' of all sorts of things.

As I do not like anarchists or deniers, then he never was my cup of tea anyway.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

In this context, the idea that one idealised person is the possessor of some kind of esoteric knowledge; his or her followers lap up every word like pearls of wisdom which they can quote like shining drops of molten gold off by heart, whenever the occasion demands it.

The idea that I am a follower of some not-even-particularly bright or literate person is just so funny.

That is something of a reasonable definition of cult of personality, so I will accept that.

What is not reasonable however, is your attempt to claim that we think that you are under the spell of anyone. We don't claim that, we just claim that you have cribbed extensively from deluded lunatics in formulating your bizarre ideas.

You don't have to think everything that Bjorkman says is gospel to cite him as an expert in something he is expressly not an expert in, for example.

 

[Vixen]

While we're in the mood for 'fessing up, I mistook Utö for Swedish territory, having only seen there was an Utö in Sweden and not checked the map. Sorry if I left people wondering WTF I was on about earlier.

The Swedes have the cheek to call Utö, Finska Utö as though theirs is the real one.

 

[JayUtah]

I know next to nothing about the guy.

You have been presented with an extensive catalogue of Björkman's errors in and denials of science. He is a former member of this forum, and has posted extensively. Why has this failed to inform you? What else would be required in order to provide you with an accurate picture of his reliability in science and engineering?

And if you "know next to nothing about" him, then how were you once so confidently able to tell us he must be respected because he was a fully qualified marine engineer? It seems all you know about him is what he believes and tells people about himself.

As I do not like anarchists or deniers, then he never was my cup of tea anyway.

No one is talking about "anarchists." You cited to Björkman early in this thread, and several times since, and even recently. You have at times spent considerable effort trying to rehabilitate him as an expert witness in marine engineering. You still rely upon him for Aftonbladet quotes and commentary. You may have disavowed him with your keyboard, but you have not given up on using him as a source. You're just concealing it as best you can.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

MRCC Turku told Silja Europa it would arrive 'in ten minutes'. This was at 0227.



Olsson said he arrived at 0300 (he is associated with Y74)



MRCC Stockholm duty operations log starts at 0202.



Svensson told Aftonbladet he left Berga just after 0200.



When you consider that on any journey between Stockholm and Tallinn, the expected occupancy rate was 70% Swedish nationals, and the vessel was 50% Swedish owned, are you sure it is reasonable that the first Stockholm helicopter would not get there until almost 0400?



Bearing in mind MRCC had been getting tip offs from the public that something was going on in the Baltic. The first it knew was a lorry driver ringing them up. At the same time circa 0154, MRCC Stockholm was ringing MRCC Turku to find out what was going on. MRCC Turku could not get through until 0158.



Don't you feel there must surely have been a sense of urgency?



Not, 'Oh just have to give the guys an hour to get here, first'.



Especially as Berga is a sizeable naval base.

Sources please for what Olsson and Svensson allegedly said. What time did any Swedish helicopter get alerted and by whom?

 

[MarkCorrigan]

I mistook it for an ordinary newspaper because that is what it looks like when you click on it.

So what you are admitting here is googling for any other source for the same bonkers claims you are making, taking one look at the layout of the website and deciding "**** it, that will do".


Amazing.

 

[abaddon]

There was a refuelling station especially for the helicopters at Utö.

Which is no use for the survivors, the repairs or the fuel remaining. Or for that matter getting the helicopter back on scene as fast as possible.

And it doesn't matter anyway. That is a call made by the pilot.

 

[Vixen]

You have been presented with an extensive catalogue of Björkman's errors in and denials of science. He is a former member of this forum, and has posted extensively. Why has this failed to inform you? What else would be required in order to provide you with an accurate picture of his reliability in science and engineering?



No one is talking about "anarchists." You cited to Björkman early in this thread, and several times since, and even recently. You have at times spent considerable effort trying to rehabilitate him as an expert witness in marine engineering. You still rely upon him for Aftonbladet quotes and commentary. You may have disavowed him with your keyboard, but you have not given up on using him as a source. You're just concealing it as best you can.

I would never rely on the call of a crowd who often are just a baying mob who enjoy the sport of chasing someone down. It's like being lost and then following the crowd thinking they are going the same way and then discovering they were not at all.

 

[Mojo]

Any decision that has been before a court of law is in the public domain (with a few exceptions, such as a Family Court).

Oh good. You’ll be able to cite it then.

Why do you believe that only Bollyn (in 2012) is the only person who could have known about the two Egyptians?

What are you claiming that he knew about the two Egyptians?

Loads of people seem to have known that the two Egyptians were extradited to Egypt without due process, and with insufficient guarantee that they would not be tortured. We have actual court decisions confirming this.

What you are claiming is quite different. You claim that they were disappeared, and that a court (you initially claimed it was the ECHR) has confirmed this. Is this the ‘knowledge’ that you are attributing to Bollyn? What evidence is it based on?

 

[Vixen]

Sources please for what Olsson and Svensson allegedly said. What time did any Swedish helicopter get alerted and by whom?

From JAIC:

"Q 97 (Super Puma)

The Swedish stand-by helicopter Q 97 took off from Visby at 0250 hrs, arriving at the scene of the accident at 0350 hrs. The OSC requested the helicopter to pick up as many people as possible from the sea.

On its first flight Q 97 rescued six survivors from the keels of two upside-down lifeboats. As instructed by the OSC, Q 97 flew them to Utö, where it landed at 0500 hrs. During the stop the crew called ARCC Arlanda, informing about the situation at the scene and asking for as many helicopters as possible." 7.5.5


This was the first 'urgent' helicopter to arrive according to JAIC.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

I would never rely on the call of a crowd who often are just a baying mob who enjoy the sport of chasing someone down. It's like being lost and then following the crowd thinking they are going the same way and then discovering they were not at all.

You are raving.

You've been told, multiple times, that Bjorkman does not think that nukes are possible. Whatever you think of your interlocutors here (and wasn't it you who used to nanny us for being rude?) that is a fact that even you have accepted. This denial means the man is incompetent in physics, or is willing to ignore physics in order to cling on to his delusions. Either way he is not someone that can be relied upon as an expert in physics.

 

[Vixen]

So what you are admitting here is googling for any other source for the same bonkers claims you are making, taking one look at the layout of the website and deciding "**** it, that will do".


Amazing.

It showed that the two Egyptians' plight was in the public domain.

 

[JayUtah]

I would never rely on the call of a crowd who often are just a baying mob who enjoy the sport of chasing someone down.

Your personal distaste for your critics is noted.

You're the one citing him as an authority, despite knowing next to nothing about him. Far from a "braying mob," we have actually done the legwork necessary to determine whether he is a reliable source or not, up to and including debating him directly and interactively exactly as we are doing with you. We have presented to you the facts that are the fruits of that investigation, and you seem to have no stomach for them. Why is that?

So since you're dismissing a proper review of Anders Björkman's claims as nothing more than mean-spiritedness, are you back to trying to rehabilitate him as a witness?

 

[JayUtah]

It showed that the two Egyptians' plight was in the public domain.

How so? It merely cites to Bollyn, who is the one trying to draw the comparison between the Egyptians and the missing MS Estonia officers by fabricating a pseudo-legal theory. The question is not whether the two Egyptian's plight was known. The question is what the actual character of that plight was. Your source claims they were "disappeared," not merely expelled injudiciously from the country. Your only source for that claim is Bollyn.

 

[Vixen]

Your personal distaste for your critics is noted.

You're the one citing him as an authority, despite knowing next to nothing about him. Far from a "braying mob," we have actually done the legwork necessary to determine whether he is a reliable source or not, up to and including debating him directly and interactively exactly as we are doing with you. We have presented to you the facts that are the fruits of that investigation, and you seem to have no stomach for them. Why is that?

So since you're dismissing a proper review of Anders Björkman's claims as nothing more than mean-spiritedness, are you back to trying to rehabilitate him as a witness?

I have not hitched my horse to any cart.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

It showed that the two Egyptians' plight was in the public domain.

But not, crucially, that their plight equated to enforced disappearance, which was your claim.

You have been asked for where you got the legally incorrect bonkers opinion that the case of the two Egyptians was enforced disappearance. You've quoted Bollyn as a source, who is a delusional nutcase and not a legal expert, and some far right fake newspaper that quotes Bollyn. Now you're desperately trying to distance yourself from these two (well, one really) sources, so people are asking you for where you did find this information. You've just claimed it is publicly available, except that the publicly available information, including the court case you cited, does not support the conclusion you have claimed.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

I have not hitched my horse to any cart.

This is what is commonly called "a lie". You've continued to crib from Bjorkman even after his obvious insanity was brought to your attention. Again, you take your incorrect ideas on ship buoyancy from him, and every time you've quoted Aftonbladet it has come from Bjorkman's quoting of said paper, right down to including the gaps in the quotes that Bjorkman does. That you're trying, apparently without shame, to hoodwink us into thinking you are not using Bjorkman's nonsense just goes to show that you know it is a lie.