Discussion: Transwomen are not women (Part 7)

[Elaedith]

There was a recent exchange of letters between Andy Lewis (UK sceptic) and Aaron Rabinowitz (US skeptic) on the topic of 'Sceptics need to be Gender Critical'.

(Discussion continues over two pages - next button is at the bottom)

Relevant quote from Andy's second letter:

'Sex is not an arbitrary collection of characteristics that cannot be clearly defined. This is ideological nonsense. Biology allows us to understand very clearly what a sex is, and we know that almost all human beings can (trivially) be unambiguously classified as male or female (the two sexes). There is so much nonsense spoken here about "intersex" and rare aneuploidies such as X0 and XXY. Sceptics should be at the forefront of highlighting these conceptual muddles. These tactics come straight from the postmodernist playbook of obfuscating and undermining objective concepts so that subjective and specious arguments can dominate. No scientific and liberal sceptic can be a postmodernist.'

 

[sphenisc]

You are simply wrong. You are trying to use linguistics to argue a scientific point, and not even very well. Apropos, really.

In science and logic, definitions can never be circular. Each level needs to go higher or deeper, but it can never circle back.

What is a tree? Something that looks like a tree.
What is a tree? Something that looks like a tree.

What is a woman? Someone who identifies as a woman.
What is a woman? Someone who identifies as a woman.

What is a tree?
A woody perennial plant, typically having a single stem or trunk growing to a considerable height and bearing lateral branches at some distance from the ground.

What is a trunk?

The main woody stem of a tree as distinct from its branches and roots.

 

[theprestige]

The nice thing about the tree example is that while it's possible to dive down a linguistic rabbit hole of ambiguity and unresolved questions of meaning, nobody is actually confused about what a tree is, or what are its parts.

And I'm sure there are some rare examples of flora that defy easy taxonomic categories. Just as I'm sure those rare exceptions do not seriously inconvenience tree lawyers in the usual course of their legal practice.

Same thing with biological sex. Upchurch tryna talk about shrubbery, like it matters at all to the question of whether it should be legal to poison the ancient oak tree in the town square.

 

[LondonJohn]

The nice thing about the tree example is that while it's possible to dive down a linguistic rabbit hole of ambiguity and unresolved questions of meaning, nobody is actually confused about what a tree is, or what are its parts.

And I'm sure there are some rare examples of flora that defy easy taxonomic categories. Just as I'm sure those rare exceptions do not seriously inconvenience tree lawyers in the usual course of their legal practice.

Same thing with biological sex. Upchurch tryna talk about shrubbery, like it matters at all to the question of whether it should be legal to poison the ancient oak tree in the town square.

Well yes. But what about gender* (which is the germane issue so far as transgender identity is concerned)?


* Or do you think biological sex and gender are rigidly linked? As in the "a woman is an adult human female" BS mantra?

 

[Louden Wilde]

6:25ish in the video I posted is the first specific example just in that video.

You also told me this was already well covered information. Are you sure about that?

Yes, he's sure. As am I. We've been through all this. The "educator" in your video is conflating non-functional (reproductive) mutants/medical conditions and the diversity of reproductive strategies in non-mammalian taxa with human reproduction.

Here's the definition of sex yet again.

Bottom line: There are two reproductive classes in mammals. These two reproductive roles are based on the two different gamete types

Note that there are many features that differ between the two mammalian gamete types besides size (e.g. many features of chromatin organization and epigenetic marks, stored gene products - the oocyte having all those necessary for the first cell division or two). These differences alterative methods of reproduction in mammals (parthenogenesis).

If an individual is fertile at any point in their life, it's because they are able to produce oocytes or sperm. If not, they are not relevant to a definition of sex.
Put another way, every mammal that has ever reproduced has been either female or male by the definition above.

No mammal can switch sexes, almost certainly due to the antagonistic developmental pathways. The term for a subgroup of one sex that shares secondary/superficial characteristics with the other sex is sexual mimicry

In terms of history, Trans- IDing human males will never be broadly regarded as females (i.e. women) precisely because they can not fulfill that reproductive role. That is, males are always going to prefer real women.

The flip side of this, of course, is that females are oppressed/subjugated due to their reproductive role and the accompanying characteristics since mammalian reproduction is particularly costly to females.

 

[d4m10n]

But what about gender* (which is the germane issue so far as transgender identity is concerned)?

The video Upchurch shared didn't have any insights about gender, and defined it so idiosyncratically that it may seemingly be inferred from sexual behaviour in non-human animals.

 

[Louden Wilde]

If you are still trying to push some ideological claptrap about sex being a spectrum because intersex (actually DSDs) and implying this has something to do with people identifying as transgender, you are indeed underestimating how much progress has been made. This has all now been debunked multiple times. The video is not even a good example of this nonsense.

Aside from anything else, this rubbish is highly upsetting to many people who do actually have differences/disorders of sexual development. Some of them are now being conflated with people who identify as transgender and told their medical condition is an 'identity'. DSD activists who speak out against this get harassed and their livelihoods threatened.

Well put. The disingenuousness of these arguments still floors me. Sometimes the TRA activists want being trans to be a medical condition and purposefully conflate with DSDs (who almost always have fertility and often other issues) and other times they want being trans to be seen as normal variation.

 

[Louden Wilde]

Well yes. But what about gender* (which is the germane issue so far as transgender identity is concerned)?


* Or do you think biological sex and gender are rigidly linked? As in the "a woman is an adult human female" BS mantra?

Women are adult human females. See the definition I just linked. They should not have to behave according to perceived gender roles. This is what most of the so called "TERFs" on your lovely isle are fighting against. I find it hard to believe you don't know that.

 

[TomB]

Well yes. But what about gender* (which is the germane issue so far as transgender identity is concerned)?


* Or do you think biological sex and gender are rigidly linked? As in the "a woman is an adult human female" BS mantra?

This is silly. You keep drawing it back to an issue that even if there is not agreement, there is at least acceptance within the context of the discussion: that sex and gender are different things.

Given that, it follows that some things where people are sorted are by gender and other things are by sex. There seems to be some agreement that sports are by sex, but disagreement as to wether bathrooms or locker rooms are segregated by sex or gender.

Posts like the one I quoted drag the discussion away from the actual disagreements and mischaracterize the actual issues.

And I see that while I was writing this, the bait has been taken.

 

[d4m10n]

Posts like the one I quoted drag the discussion away from the actual disagreements and mischaracterize the actual issues.

This is also true of educational videos about sexual variety in the animal kingdom, in a discussion about transgender rights.

How should people react if someone were to make the argument that Hubbard ought to give up lifting weights with males and begin competing with females instead because their central subdivision of the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis (a relatively small bit of brain) is half as large as we'd expect? When we put it that way, does it become obvious that we've dragged the discussion away from actually salient issues (muscle mass, bone density) and on to something else entirely?

 

[sphenisc]

The flip side of this, of course, is that females are oppressed/subjugated due to their reproductive role and the accompanying characteristics since mammalian reproduction is particularly costly to females.

That doesn't follow, c.f. spotted hyena.

 

[d4m10n]

In swimming news, Yale found someone who can compete with Lia Thomas.

https://twitter.com/718Tv/status/1479965378931576835

 

[lionking]

In swimming news, Yale found someone who can compete with Lia Thomas.

https://twitter.com/718Tv/status/1479965378931576835

I didn’t need to open the link to know the story.

 

[Meadmaker]

In swimming news, Yale found someone who can compete with Lia Thomas.

https://twitter.com/718Tv/status/1479965378931576835

Some of the story was confusing, because they used "female" and "male" in spots differently than we tend to use them here.

As best I can tell, the winning swimmer was a transman, but who had not undertaken any male hormones. She had had her breasts removed, but that was it. So, she was completely female, without any performance enhancing treatments.

I don't have a problem with that? Does anyone else?

ETA: And I think I was supposed to say "his breasts", but.....whatever. Biological female. Identifies male. Swims as a woman. Doesn't take drugs. I got no problem with it. Maybe breast removal had given "him" some advantage? I don't think we'll see a bumch of people getting mastectomies to improve their times. I'm ok with it.

 

[lionking]

Some of the story was confusing, because they used "female" and "male" in spots differently than we tend to use them here.

As best I can tell, the winning swimmer was a transman, but who had not undertaken any male hormones. She had had her breasts removed, but that was it. So, she was completely female, without any performance enhancing treatments.

I don't have a problem with that? Does anyone else?

ETA: And I think I was supposed to say "his breasts", but.....whatever. Biological female. Identifies male. Swims as a woman. Doesn't take drugs. I got no problem with it. Maybe breast removal had given "him" some advantage? I don't think we'll see a bumch of people getting mastectomies to improve their times. I'm ok with it.

Ah, I didn’t read the report closely. A transman winning makes a huge difference.

 

[d4m10n]

I don't have a problem with that? Does anyone else?

I cannot make sense of the relevant policy. Seems they sort by gender for transgender swimmers who are MtF but by sex for transgender swimmers who are FtM.

 

[Meadmaker]

I cannot make sense of the relevant policy. Seems they sort by gender for transgender swimmers who are MtF but by sex for transgender swimmers who are FtM.

In terms of sense of the policy, I think it's all fine. They sort by "Where do you want to swim?" If you want to swim in a particular division, and meet the criteria for that division, then you can swim there.

 

[qayak]

In terms of sense of the policy, I think it's all fine. They sort by "Where do you want to swim?" If you want to swim in a particular division, and meet the criteria for that division, then you can swim there.

Not much of a competition. More like a fun swim. Do they all get a participation award and a chance at winning some fun prizes?

 

[theprestige]

Well yes. But what about gender* (which is the germane issue so far as transgender identity is concerned)?

My position is that gender is a red herring, and not actually germane to the real issue.

"Gender" as such is an essentially meaningless term anymore. Does wearing a dress make you a woman? Nope, men can wear dresses too. Does performing a stereotype of traditional womanhood make you a woman? Nope, anyone can do that.

The only real issue is sex segregation. The only real ambiguity arises from the fact that up until recently, gender was a consistent and reliable proxy for sex. But the reality is that women go to women's shelters because they are female. They go to women's locker rooms because they are female. They go into women's sports because they are female.

The only real issues, the ones where transcending "gender" really matter, are the ones where what actually matters is transcending sex. Issues where someone wants to preserve the conventions of sex-based segregation, and then transcend those conventions to associate with, and participate as, the opposite sex.

Lia Thomas wanting to join the women's swim team isn't a transgender issue. It's a transsexual issue.

Set aside the question of sex segregation, and of crossing sex segregation boundaries, and what's left is a pointless mish-mash of ill-defined customs and stereotypes that fewer and fewer people take seriously anymore anyway: Gender.

 

[qayak]

Everytime I read this thread the image of Kramer, from the show Seinfeld, taking his participation in a kid's karate class seriously comes to mind.

I am not a huge fan of sports. I play ice hockey but I don't watch it beyond a few highlights . . . except when Canada's womens national team plays. I especially like watching when they play the US's national team. Those games I watch, either live or later on Youtube.

Another thing I do is watch women's track. It is fun to watch the race times dropping over the years. Just after Bannister broke the 4 minute mile a woman broke 5 minutes. Today the men's record is 3:43 and the women's 4:12. Realizing how hard sports are at the level I play, I can appreciate just how much work went into both those records.

And I think that is the crux of all this. Those who understand the effort and commitment required to compete at that level and recognize what women have gone through in order to be allowed to compete really don't care if a trans-woman has their feelings hurt when they are not allowed to compete against women.

If a trans-woman ever closes in on the men's mile record, I will be in the crowd cheering them on. If they ever compete for Canada in their own category, I will cheer them on. But I am not interested in watching them beat a record that was set by a man 100 years ago. I am interested in watching a woman do it.