Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part V

[Vixen]

What a non-sensical inference, even assuming the rest of the story is true.

I know that Beethoven was born in Bonn, Germany. Does that mean I must have spoken to him?

Or is it some kind of Estonian cultural thing to keep one's birthplace secret, like "true names"? Do birthplaces have magical powers in Estonian folklore or something?

Had you ever heard of Hiumaa before I mentioned it?

 

[Mojo]

Since I had never read 'Bollyn' it must have been from elsewhere.

But you had read Bollyn.

Where does one gets information about the world from?

That’s what people are asking you. You seem unable to provide a source other than Bollyn and MV Lehti.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Your assumption is incorrect. Swedish helicopters dropped off their survivors at Utö. AFAIAA only one helicopter carrying nine and apparently one carrying one, went direct to Huddinge.

Isn't that what I said? Swedish helicopters took survivors to Sweden. Not to Turku. What version of your abduction story has the Swedes transport Piht to Finland?

Helsingin Sanomat 1.10.1994 reported Danish and Swedish newspapers saying Piht had gone missing from a Helsinki hospital. That makes sense, as he may have travelled with Bildt, Aho and Laar (the Prime Ministers of Sweden, Finland and Estonia) when they flew to Turku to interview Sillaste (and probably Piht, too) and Piht then flew to Helsinki, on the same plane as them, where the JAIC was set up.



HS

So now you have the three nations prime ministers in on it as they travel to Finland with Piht, where he's allegedly filmed by TV news, and then Piht is transferred to the Finnish capital and then is disappeared. You seem to be making a case against the famously honest Finns now, and throwing the Estonians in for good measure.

How exactly does this tie in to your conspiracy theory of his being spirited away by Sweden after a secret early helicopter rescue from a posh lifeboat?

 

[Vixen]

Does he? Please provide a citation showing the authority the OSC has.

Once again:

7.1 Summary of the operation

The ESTONIA sank in international waters in Finland's Search and Rescue Region (SRR), in its Archipelago Sea maritime SRR under the responsibility of the Maritime Rescue Co-ordination Centre (MRCC) in Turku. Consequently Finland was responsible for the overall co-ordination of the Search and Rescue (SAR) operation.

<snip

7.5.4 At 0205 hrs MRCC Turku appointed the master On-Scene Commander (OSC). The SILJA EUROPA arrived at the scene at 0230 hrs.

ibid

On-scene commander (OSC)
MARINE
The commander of a rescue unit designated to co-ordinate search and rescue operations within a specified area.

Captain Esa Mäkela of Silja Europa was appointed On Scene Commander by Commander Montonen, MRCC Turku chief coast guard and he had absolute power to make instructions as to the rescue coordination.

Here to Learn gave a good account of what an OSC does, if you want to learn more.

 

[Vixen]

Lots of non-answer snipped.

My first question was:

Who was the person who got the medal after disobeying a command from the person in official command of them?

Please answer this.

Whoever took nine survivors direct to Huddinge, instead of dropping them off at Utö. These helicopters had a whole team of people but it seems this is what Svensson told Aftonbladet he did. According to witnesses he was heard telling an interviewer live on Radio Kuku he had rescued Piht.

 

[Vixen]

As already belaboured, there was no reason to think any of the helicopters defied OSC instructions as everything they did makes sense. If you have any evidence the OSC instructed them to make pointless trips and they refused then by all means present it.

Why is it pointless?

 

[Jack by the hedge]

"Absolute power". Hilariously nonsensical description.

And you have exactly no evidence any helicopter crew did anything without OSC's approval.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Why is it pointless?

Because it would have taken longer to get back to the rescue area and it would have taken longer to get the survivors to a proper hospital. Are you actually absorbing the stuff other people write here?

 

[Vixen]

Is it your claim, Vixen, that the OSC ordered all Swedish helicopters to take survivors to Utö and would not let them do otherwise even if they were not returning directly to the search area and the diversion to Utö would actually waste precious time?

Is that your claim?

No, it is your claim that in order 'not to waste time bothering to go to Utö to refuel and drop off the survivors as instructed by the OSC, it was decided to go straight to Huddinge instead'.

The JAIC dresses this up as 'because fuel was low'.

It was an instruction that helicopters with faulty winches had to return to base but not that survivors or the dead had to be taken there.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Whoever took nine survivors direct to Huddinge, instead of dropping them off at Utö. These helicopters had a whole team of people but it seems this is what Svensson told Aftonbladet he did. According to witnesses he was heard telling an interviewer live on Radio Kuku he had rescued Piht.

Weasel words. Svensson was not the pilot. Flying Y64 or Y74 was not what "he did".

Your claim of what Radio Kuku claim to have broadcast appears to be morphing into something "witnesses" (listeners?) claim it broadcast. Which is it?

 

[Vixen]

Because it would have taken longer to get back to the rescue area and it would have taken longer to get the survivors to a proper hospital. Are you actually absorbing the stuff other people write here?

What? Did you not look at the map I gave you? Stockholm was >200km away, Utö less than 38km.

 

[Vixen]

And another remainder that MV Lehti is a far right propaganda outlet of Putin, not a generally read newspaper.

Vixen, a few years ago I wrote that I don't think that you are a neo-fascist but that you do a good impression of being one.

This again such a moment: you are quoting neo-fascist sources. If you don't want to look like a neo-fascist, you probably shouldn't do that.

Is it? I didn't know that.


I am pretty left wing, actually.

 

[Vixen]

But you had read Bollyn.




That’s what people are asking you. You seem unable to provide a source other than Bollyn and MV Lehti.

Helsingin Sanomat?

 

[Mojo]

I didn't register the author nor did I know who he was.

Then how do you know you didn’t get the idea of the disappearances from him? You don’t seem to know where it came from, which suggests that you didn’t register its author.

 

[Mojo]

Helsingin Sanomat?

Link?

 

[Marras]

What? Did you not look at the map I gave you? Stockholm was >200km away, Utö less than 38km.

There is no hospital at Utö.

At the time there was a coastal artillery fortress there and the sick house of such a fortress is no real hospital.

 

[Vixen]

There is no hospital at Utö.

At the time there was a coastal artillery fortress there and the sick house of such a fortress is no real hospital.

There was a medical base set up for the dead and the survivors, who were then transferred to Turku Hospital.

There is a free of charge public ferry that will take you all the way to Utö from Parainen. It is quite local to Turku, actually.

 

[Vixen]

Then how do you know you didn’t get the idea of the disappearances from him? You don’t seem to know where it came from, which suggests that you didn’t register its author.

Er, the story of Piht's disappearance has been running since 1994. Did you not see the James Meek or the Colin Adamson citations from British newspapers of the day?

 

[Jack by the hedge]

What? Did you not look at the map I gave you? Stockholm was >200km away, Utö less than 38km.

Is pretending not to understand a simple logistical puzzle another of your "jokes"?

 

[Jack by the hedge]

There was a medical base set up for the dead and the survivors, who were then transferred to Turku Hospital.



There is a free of charge public ferry that will take you all the way to Utö from Parainen. It is quite local to Turku, actually.

Is the ferry faster than a helicopter to Huddinge?