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Oxford High School, Michigan, school shooting.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crim...hool-prosecutors-say/ar-AASz6PK?ocid=msedgntp

I'd really like to know if the parents knew about the Molotov cocktails before they purchased the weapon. The article says that the boy texted his mother about seeing ghosts. That alone should have made a reasonable person think buying someone a gun is a horrible idea. However, taking the step of making firebombs, to my mind is a whole other level of recklessness. Now he was actually preparing to commit an act of violence.
 
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crim...hool-prosecutors-say/ar-AASz6PK?ocid=msedgntp

I'd really like to know if the parents knew about the Molotov cocktails before they purchased the weapon. The article says that the boy texted his mother about seeing ghosts. That alone should have made a reasonable person think buying someone a gun is a horrible idea. However, taking the step of making firebombs, to my mind is a whole other level of recklessness. Now he was actually preparing to commit an act of violence.

OK, we are now getting a whole lot of potentially worrying things (the "potentially" is because I knew quite a few bairns who claimed to see ghosts, hear voices and the like, but were either lying through their teeth for various reasons or describing neurological phenomena, which was only established on more detailed assessment), which should make parents start looking for an appropriate professional opinion. Which they appear to have chosen not to...While buying him a killing tool...And not adequately securing said tool...
 
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crim...hool-prosecutors-say/ar-AASz6PK?ocid=msedgntp

I'd really like to know if the parents knew about the Molotov cocktails before they purchased the weapon. The article says that the boy texted his mother about seeing ghosts. That alone should have made a reasonable person think buying someone a gun is a horrible idea. However, taking the step of making firebombs, to my mind is a whole other level of recklessness. Now he was actually preparing to commit an act of violence.

He needed the gun to defend himself from the ghosts!
 
So many disturbing things.

The most damning part of the article:

Crumbley repeatedly texted his mom about seeing "demons" and "ghosts" at home, prosecutors said in court on Friday, according to the Detroit Free Press. He also recorded himself torturing animals, made Molotov cocktails at home, and joked about shooting up a school.

"It's time to shoot up a school. JK. JK. JK," Crumbley wrote in a text to a friend, according to county prosecutors.

The prosecutors also said Crumbley had been fascinated by Nazi propaganda, and said he had searched up guns and school shootings so frequently that he began to receive ads concerning "his mental well-being and firearms," the Detroit Free Press reported.

He should have been committed to some form of program long, long before the school shootings. It was also pretty clear that him receiving the gun was the trigger, pun not intended, for the school shootings. It was less than a week after getting it that he decided to go on a rampage.
 
So many disturbing things.

The most damning part of the article:

Quote:
Crumbley repeatedly texted his mom about seeing "demons" and "ghosts" at home, prosecutors said in court on Friday, according to the Detroit Free Press. He also recorded himself torturing animals, made Molotov cocktails at home, and joked about shooting up a school.

"It's time to shoot up a school. JK. JK. JK," Crumbley wrote in a text to a friend, according to county prosecutors.
The prosecutors also said Crumbley had been fascinated by Nazi propaganda, and said he had searched up guns and school shootings so frequently that he began to receive ads concerning "his mental well-being and firearms," the Detroit Free Press reported.

He should have been committed to some form of program long, long before the school shootings. It was also pretty clear that him receiving the gun was the trigger, pun not intended, for the school shootings. It was less than a week after getting it that he decided to go on a rampage.


If that friend showed that text to their own parents (which I think is very likely) then I think its reasonable to conclude that those other parents' complaints to the school actually were about Ethan Crumble. That would put a whole new light on what the school knew and when they knew it.
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plague311 said:
So many disturbing things.

The most damning part of the article:

Crumbley repeatedly texted his mom about seeing "demons" and "ghosts" at home, prosecutors said in court on Friday, according to the Detroit Free Press. He also recorded himself torturing animals, made Molotov cocktails at home, and joked about shooting up a school.

"It's time to shoot up a school. JK. JK. JK," Crumbley wrote in a text to a friend, according to county prosecutors.

The prosecutors also said Crumbley had been fascinated by Nazi propaganda, and said he had searched up guns and school shootings so frequently that he began to receive ads concerning "his mental well-being and firearms," the Detroit Free Press reported.

He should have been committed to some form of program long, long before the school shootings. It was also pretty clear that him receiving the gun was the trigger, pun not intended, for the school shootings. It was less than a week after getting it that he decided to go on a rampage.

But did his parents and the school know about these activities? I don't have kids, so I don't know if I'd be aware my hypothetical 15 year old son was doing these things. If I was aware of Twitter or Instagram accounts I'd try to subscribe to them, and be very concerned if he blocked me.

Apparently he kept an animal head in his room. Was it in plain sight or did it turn up only after going though his room during the investigation? He "recorded himself torturing animals." If the recordings were on his phone, do parents routinely go through their teenager's phone to see if it contains disturbing videos? He "made Molotov cocktails at home." Presumable he did this while is parents were out (which apparently was a lot.) Instead of "cocktails" (plural), did he make only one, a small one at that, and it was a dud?

My point is I believe normal teenagers can get away with a fair bit because they've learned from experience how to cover their tracks if they don't want adults finding out what they're up to. Sure, we're finding out about these things in Ethan's life after the fact, but I don't know how obvious it would have been to school officials and to good parents (which unfortunately Ethan didn't seem to have.) From what I can gather, as far as the school was concerned he was a pretty good student, aside from the searches for bullets and that fateful "Help me, the thoughts won't stop" scribbling on the day of the shooting.

As to the text messages about ghosts and demons at home, as a hypothetical parent I wouldn't be too concerned about ghosts, but I would be about demons since (personally) I associate them with malevolence. And for sure if I'd received the texts before thinking about buying my kid a handgun, I wouldn't have done so.
 
If that friend showed that text to their own parents (which I think is very likely) then I think its reasonable to conclude that those other parents' complaints to the school actually were about Ethan Crumble. That would put a whole new light on what the school knew and when they knew it.

Why would a kid show a random text message to his parents? Teenagers say **** to each other all the time. Not to mention Ethan put "JK" (Just Kidding!) three times on the message to indicate he wasn't being serious. I suspect the kid who received Ethan's message wrote it off as a joke.
 
Why would a kid show a random text message to his parents? Teenagers say **** to each other all the time. Not to mention Ethan put "JK" (Just Kidding!) three times on the message to indicate he wasn't being serious. I suspect the kid who received Ethan's message wrote it off as a joke.

It would only take that friend to share the information with other friends before the word gets around to a parent.

I don't have kids

Then you are not really in a position to tell those of us who do, how kids think, are you.

I know with absolute certainty that if either of my teenage daughters had received a text from someone threatening to shoot up their school, they would have shown it to me, even if they were "just kidding".
 
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But did his parents and the school know about these activities? I don't have kids, so I don't know if I'd be aware my hypothetical 15 year old son was doing these things. If I was aware of Twitter or Instagram accounts I'd try to subscribe to them, and be very concerned if he blocked me.

He was sending actual messages to his mom. Perhaps not about shooting up the school, but about seeing demons while he was awake. You wouldn't find that the least bit concerning if your hypothetical child were to say something like that? My son said he was having thoughts he wasn't sure how to handle and we got him in a program. He has depression.

Apparently he kept an animal head in his room. Was it in plain sight or did it turn up only after going though his room during the investigation? He "recorded himself torturing animals." If the recordings were on his phone, do parents routinely go through their teenager's phone to see if it contains disturbing videos?

LoL I sure as hell would if he was telling me he was seeing demons. The answer is, as you well know, we aren't sure at this point. We know his parents were aware of the bird head at least. It was reported to the school.

He "made Molotov cocktails at home." Presumable he did this while is parents were out (which apparently was a lot.) Instead of "cocktails" (plural), did he make only one, a small one at that, and it was a dud?

I think it's really odd you're using the parents terrible parenting as an excuse as to why their son turned out to be a school shooter. Their terrible parenting, ignorance, and horrible decisions with regards to their son is the problem, not a rationalization. As to the details around the cocktail? Again, as you are absolutely aware, we don't know. If that's all you want you hear, then take that as an answer for every post in the future. We won't know until trial.

My point is I believe normal teenagers can get away with a fair bit because they've learned from experience how to cover their tracks if they don't want adults finding out what they're up to.

But he didn't cover his tracks. In fact, it would appear that he was repeatedly caught due to not covering his tracks. This is information that's coming to light now, so at least some people were aware of it because it was in the court documentation.

Sure, we're finding out about these things in Ethan's life after the fact, but I don't know how obvious it would have been to school officials and to good parents (which unfortunately Ethan didn't seem to have.) From what I can gather, as far as the school was concerned he was a pretty good student, aside from the searches for bullets and that fateful "Help me, the thoughts won't stop" scribbling on the day of the shooting.

Yes, we are learning about this after the fact. It would appear his parents had a good bit of information in real-time, and it was mostly ignored.

As to the text messages about ghosts and demons at home, as a hypothetical parent I wouldn't be too concerned about ghosts, but I would be about demons since (personally) I associate them with malevolence. And for sure if I'd received the texts before thinking about buying my kid a handgun, I wouldn't have done so.

Well, demons...and the bird head...and the ammunition issue (which the mother instructed him to work harder at not being caught). His parents were ****, they should be charged, and that's where we're at in the thread.

ETA: I would also like to point out that you've had to treat each one of these instances as if they happened in a vacuum. Something I brought up earlier in the thread. You've also had to shine them in the absolute best possible light, giving Ethan the benefit of the doubt in every situation, and it still shows that his parents played a role in this situation through their negligence.
 
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If that friend showed that text to their own parents (which I think is very likely)
Not sure that is entirely true. My kids are all growed up now, but back in the day I actively participated with their online exploits. Oddly it was considered strange for me to do so. But I have been an IT head for all my life so it seemed natural to me to enjoy that online life and explain just what exactly "trolls" are.

then I think its reasonable to conclude that those other parents' complaints to the school actually were about Ethan Crumble. That would put a whole new light on what the school knew and when they knew it.
Quite. One might be forgiven in any other country for dismissing such a threat, but given the sheer volume of school shootings in the US, one must wonder WTF they were thinking.

If the students are armed, let's arm the teachers. When that don't work arm the teachers with RPGs or Javelins, why not? Or nuke the site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.
 
My point is I believe normal teenagers can get away with a fair bit because they've learned from experience how to cover their tracks if they don't want adults finding out what they're up to. Sure, we're finding out about these things in Ethan's life after the fact, but I don't know how obvious it would have been to school officials and to good parents (which unfortunately Ethan didn't seem to have.) From what I can gather, as far as the school was concerned he was a pretty good student, aside from the searches for bullets and that fateful "Help me, the thoughts won't stop" scribbling on the day of the shooting.
The thing is, this incident didn't occur in a vacuum. Numerous school shootings have made the national news in recent memory. Much public debate has been had across the country about these things. If the school staff weren't painfully aware of the risk that awaited them if they underestimated the situation, they weren't doing their jobs.

It's not just a question of how likely it would be to happen. It's also a question of how bad things could get if the unlikely does happen.

Your point about teenagers being able to hide most stuff is actually a strike against the school staff, in my opinion. Teenagers are good at hiding stuff? That should be a major consideration for professionals who work with teenagers as their avocation and career. Why would anyone who knows teenagers assume that if they only found one instance, that it would be the only instance? Especially when it looks like it might be a warning sign of brewing violence? Wouldn't a responsible school admin assume that there's four signs they haven't yet noticed, for every sign they have noticed?

Obviously they tried to get more corroboration from the parents, but surely any competent school admin knows that parents can be ignorant or even willfully obstructive, when it comes to their child's wellbeing. Send him back to class? Maybe. Hindsight is 20/20. But I think even 20/40 foresight would have been sufficient to search his bag and his locker before sending him back. It's a small thing, it's well within their authority, and it's an easy thing to weigh against the risk that this is an incipient school shooter and you just haven't figured it out yet.

Everything I've heard about this story leads me to the conclusion that the school should have at least checked his bag.

And everything I've heard about this story leads me to the conclusion that the parents knew exactly how troubled their son was, exactly what risks they were taking, and exactly what the likely outcome was going to be. If I were the prosecutor, I'd be looking for a way to charge them with aggravated negligent homicide, or some such.
 
Then you are not really in a position to tell those of us who do, how kids think, are you.
True! I was out of my depth with that statement; it's been a long time since I was a teenager myself.

I know with absolute certainty that if either of my teenage daughters had received a text from someone threatening to shoot up their school, they would have shown it to me, even if they were "just kidding".

Good to know. It's a much better data point than my non-existent teenager simply taking it as a joke and not saying anything more about it.
 
He was sending actual messages to his mom. Perhaps not about shooting up the school, but about seeing demons while he was awake. You wouldn't find that the least bit concerning if your hypothetical child were to say something like that?

I did say I'd be concerned about the demons, and even if he said he'd only seen ghosts I'd want talk about them with him. What's notable is I didn't think I'd go through his phone to look for other issues.

My son said he was having thoughts he wasn't sure how to handle and we got him in a program. He has depression.

Good to hear, and that you picked up on it. At this point it looks like Ethan's parents didn't, despite there being some red flags.

LoL I sure as hell would if he was telling me he was seeing demons. The answer is, as you well know, we aren't sure at this point. We know his parents were aware of the bird head at least. It was reported to the school.

Thanks for that; I'd missed it earlier.

I think it's really odd you're using the parents terrible parenting as an excuse as to why their son turned out to be a school shooter. Their terrible parenting, ignorance, and horrible decisions with regards to their son is the problem, not a rationalization.

What I'm doing here, as someone who hasn't had kids, is sussing out the degree to which reasonable parents would know just how screwed up their kid was. So far both you and smartcookie have made it clear that, yes, they should have known, and I'm sure neither you nor him would have bought him a gun and let him have access to it. You're successfully making the case that Ethan's parents were negligent in not picking up on his issues.

As to the details around the cocktail? Again, as you are absolutely aware, we don't know. If that's all you want you hear, then take that as an answer for every post in the future. We won't know until trial.

I agree.


But he didn't cover his tracks. In fact, it would appear that he was repeatedly caught due to not covering his tracks. This is information that's coming to light now, so at least some people were aware of it because it was in the court documentation.

Yes, we are learning about this after the fact. It would appear his parents had a good bit of information in real-time, and it was mostly ignored.

Well, demons...and the bird head...and the ammunition issue (which the mother instructed him to work harder at not being caught). His parents were ****, they should be charged, and that's where we're at in the thread.

I'd forgotten his mother knew about the ammunition searches and merely advised Ethan he should try not getting caught. That implies she wasn't too concerned as to why he was seeking out the information. I looked at it as "kid has new toy, wants to know about it." As in, if he'd been given a nice SLR camera, what's so strange about him looking for information on lenses and SD memory cards? Except lenses don't kill people.

ETA: I would also like to point out that you've had to treat each one of these instances as if they happened in a vacuum. Something I brought up earlier in the thread. You've also had to shine them in the absolute best possible light, giving Ethan the benefit of the doubt in every situation, and it still shows that his parents played a role in this situation through their negligence.

You're quite right that I've been shining it in the best possible light. Much of the reason is to elicit useful responses like yours that show where I'm wrong. Such as your point some of these incidents (bird's head, ghosts and demons, ammunition searches) did not occur in a vacuum and his parents were aware of them. Based on what they knew, I see it as nothing short of negligent that they purchased a semiautomatic handgun for him and failed to secure it.
 
(Bunch of stuff that I totally agree with snipped.)

And everything I've heard about this story leads me to the conclusion that the parents knew exactly how troubled their son was, exactly what risks they were taking, and exactly what the likely outcome was going to be. If I were the prosecutor, I'd be looking for a way to charge them with aggravated negligent homicide, or some such.

Right now I'm uncertain Ethan's parents were aware just how troubled their son was. I'm pretty certain everyone participating in this thread, knowing about the bird's head in the jar and the texts he sent about seeing ghosts and demons in the home, would not have purchased a handgun for him. Or if they did, make sure it was in a gun safe they knew he couldn't get into, with the ammunition hidden somewhere else.
 
Rather demonstrably untrue innit? He literally did, seriously, shoot up the school. That's why this thread is here.


Fox 2 Detroit said:
According to Keast, in August 2021, Ethan Crumbley is accused of texting a friend a photo of him holding one of James Crumbley's loaded guns with the message, "It’s time to shoot up the school JK JK JK."
Source

That's pretty serious. It wasn't, for example, part of a "Four Yorkshiremen" game where Ethan and his friend were trying to top each other on their plans for the upcoming week. Ethan was holding an unsecured weapon and talking about shooting up a school!
 
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True! I was out of my depth with that statement; it's been a long time since I was a teenager myself.

Thank you

Good to know. It's a much better data point than my non-existent teenager simply taking it as a joke and not saying anything more about it.

Of course, I live in a country where students taking guns to school and killing fellow students in a shooting spree isn't just part of everyday life!
 
.....

You're quite right that I've been shining it in the best possible light. Much of the reason is to elicit useful responses like yours that show where I'm wrong. Such as your point some of these incidents (bird's head, ghosts and demons, ammunition searches) did not occur in a vacuum and his parents were aware of them. Based on what they knew, I see it as nothing short of negligent that they purchased a semiautomatic handgun for him and failed to secure it.

It is against federal law for a minor to own or possess a handgun. Did the parents claim they bought him the gun? It must be registered in their names (right?).

They seem to have "forgotten" where it was stored at the time. Looking at what we know about these "parents" I'll guess he had possession of it all along. Even if not the parents were negligent, regardless of any text messages or animal heads. They should be criminally liable. Not a lawyer, just my opinion.
 
It is against federal law for a minor to own or possess a handgun. Did the parents claim they bought him the gun? It must be registered in their names (right?).

Pretty much everything I've seen in this thread indicates the father purchased and paid for the gun with the intent of giving it to his son as a gift, likely a Christmas present but purchased a few days early. In which case there's the possibility he could be hit with a federal charge.

As for registration, Michigan is one of the few US states that actually requires it:

ballotpedia.org said:
Pistol purchases must be accompanied by a local license forwarded to the state's pistol entry database.
Source

The quote refers to a License to Purchase. However, if an individual has a Concealed Pistol License, he or she doesn't need to have a License to Purchase to acquire the handgun. (I have no idea if James Crumbly had one or not.) In all cases, a Pistol Sales Record must be completed and submitted, apparently to a county office. Often the seller will do that on behalf of the purchaser, in which case the record would have James' name on it. Failure to complete and submit the record is a civil, not a criminal, offense.

They seem to have "forgotten" where it was stored at the time. Looking at what we know about these "parents" I'll guess he had possession of it all along. Even if not the parents were negligent, regardless of any text messages or animal heads. They should be criminally liable. Not a lawyer, just my opinion.

I agree. However, this being the States, and Michigan in particular, it might be difficult to successfully prosecute a "criminal negligence" charge. From my point of view, Michigan is a strange mixture of Democratic and hard-right politics.
 
Pretty much everything I've seen in this thread indicates the father purchased and paid for the gun with the intent of giving it to his son as a gift, likely a Christmas present but purchased a few days early. In which case there's the possibility he could be hit with a federal charge.

Please as we saw with kyle rittenhouse there is nothing illegal about the illegal straw purchase of a fire arm by a minor.
 

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