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Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part V

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Here_to_learn said:
Because they had three rescue men injured. It's clearly spelled out in the JAIC report, as well as in contemporary newspaper reports. For example in Svenska Dagbladet (paywall).

They had to go back to Berga to repair the winch and change the crew, and could then just as well deliver the rescued persons to Huddinge Sjukhus instead of spending extra time flying to Utö and then having to refuel to get back to base.

This is the JAIC text:
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Also Helicopter Y 65. It also was returning to Berga for repair and took one survivor to hospital in Stockholm which is just 10 miles from the base.
A nurse was taken on board to assist in the rescue work. After this, Y 65 proceeded to Berga to change the winch and wire before changing crew and returning to the search.
 
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Here_to_learn said:
Don't you read what you reply to? I specifically spelled it out.

They had to go to Berga for repairs and changing crew. They had enough fuel to go direct, and Huddinge hospital is basically next-door.
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The On Scene Commander ordered that any helicopters with defective winches should return to base. He also ordered that survivors and the dead be brought to the ships (if they could land a helicopter - and only the Finnish ones could as they had trained for this) or transferred to the special base set up at Utö for them, staffed with a team of doctors and nurses.

A helicopter with a broken winch is not in any immediate danger. It could still drop off the survivors at Utö, as ordered, refuel and then return to base, as ordered.

Instead, whilst obeying the order to return the helicopter with a defective winch to base Y74 seems to have directly disobeyed the order by flying the survivors direct to Huddinge. Claiming low fuel and a defective winch is a pathetic excuse and a likely story by the JAIC.

Three survivors were hanging on to the keel of an upside-down lifeboat. Y 64's rescue man was lowered, and all three survivors were winched up. In connection with the rescue of the last of the three, a strong wave threw the rescue man against the lifeboat, injuring him. Since Y 74 now had three injured rescue men, it had to interrupt its rescue operations. In addition, fuel was running low. The six survivors, the injured rescue men and the body were taken to Huddinge Hospital, where the helicopter arrived at 0930 hrs. Y 74 returned to Berga at 0940 hrs to change crew.
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JAIC 7.5.5

Why would any member of the Defence Forces get the highest medal in the land after having wilfully disobeyed a command from the person in official command of them, the On Scene Commander of all people?
 
Captain_Swoop said:
What do the logistics have to do with it?

When would Svensson have had opportunity to brief reporters 'openly milling around'? Do you think the reporters were wandering around the helicopter landing and fuelling sites?
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An Estonian radio station claims to have interviewed Svensson, who seemed only too eager to let the world know, and that he said in the interview that he had rescued Avo Piht. He even said Piht came from Hiumaa, an island off Estonia, which surely, only Piht himself could have told him that.
 
Captain_Swoop said:
Also Helicopter Y 65. It also was returning to Berga for repair and took one survivor to hospital in Stockholm which is just 10 miles from the base.
A nurse was taken on board to assist in the rescue work. After this, Y 65 proceeded to Berga to change the winch and wire before changing crew and returning to the search.
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That must have been the other now missing Estonian.
 
Vixen said:
Why would any member of the Defence Forces get the highest medal in the land after having wilfully disobeyed a command from the person in official command of them, the On Scene Commander of all people?
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Could you please elaborate a little here:

Who was the person who got the medal after disobeying a command from the person in official command of them?

And what was the command?
 
Vixen said:
An Estonian radio station claims to have interviewed Svensson, who seemed only too eager to let the world know, and that he said in the interview that he had rescued Avo Piht. He even said Piht came from Hiumaa, an island off Estonia, which surely, only Piht himself could have told him that.
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This really needs a citation or link, but it might be a bit more credible if it was a named Estonian radio station, rather than just one that goes to a different school.
 
Vixen said:
Instead, whilst obeying the order to return the helicopter with a defective winch to base Y74 seems to have directly disobeyed the order by flying the survivors direct to Huddinge. Claiming low fuel and a defective winch is a pathetic excuse and a likely story by the JAIC.
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Show the source where the helicopter commander is criticised for disobedience. That should be documented in the report from the OSC.

Otherwise this is just your fantasy.
 
Vixen said:
The On Scene Commander ordered that any helicopters with defective winches should return to base. He also ordered that survivors and the dead be brought to the ships (if they could land a helicopter - and only the Finnish ones could as they had trained for this) or transferred to the special base set up at Utö for them, staffed with a team of doctors and nurses.

A helicopter with a broken winch is not in any immediate danger. It could still drop off the survivors at Utö, as ordered, refuel and then return to base, as ordered.

Instead, whilst obeying the order to return the helicopter with a defective winch to base Y74 seems to have directly disobeyed the order by flying the survivors direct to Huddinge. Claiming low fuel and a defective winch is a pathetic excuse and a likely story by the JAIC.

JAIC 7.5.5

Why would any member of the Defence Forces get the highest medal in the land after having wilfully disobeyed a command from the person in official command of them, the On Scene Commander of all people?
Click to expand...

Where to start?

Why do you think the on scene commander has any jurisdiction over military assets?

Why do you think it would be a good idea to make the helicopter fly in the opposite direction to it's base, drop off survivors then attempt to refuel to then return to it's own base rather than save a lot of time getting it fixed and back in to the rescue?

Why do you think the rescue man has any say in where the helicopter goes?

Why do you think a someone who was no longer on the helicopter would have any say in where it went?

Helicopter Y 65 also flew direct to it's base and dropped off a survivor as it passed Stockholm.
 
Vixen said:
An Estonian radio station claims to have interviewed Svensson, who seemed only too eager to let the world know, and that he said in the interview that he had rescued Avo Piht. He even said Piht came from Hiumaa, an island off Estonia, which surely, only Piht himself could have told him that.
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Do you really think that we will believe you when you invent sources out of thin air?
 
Vixen said:
An Estonian radio station claims to have interviewed Svensson, who seemed only too eager to let the world know, and that he said in the interview that he had rescued Avo Piht. He even said Piht came from Hiumaa, an island off Estonia, which surely, only Piht himself could have told him that.
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Which radio station?

have you heard the interview?

They must have a recording of the interview to support the claim.
 
Why would the on scene commander object to a damaged helicopter dropping off survivors at a hospital on it's direct route for repair and refuel?

There were problems with fuel availability throughout the day, any way to avoid using the restricted supplies at Utö, Nauvo, Turku and Hanko would have been welcomed.

Wouldn't he want it repaired, re-crewed, fueled and back in to the rescue as soon as possible?

What does she think the duties and responsibilities of the on scene commander were?

What authority over Swedish military helicopter does she think the captain of a Finnish ferry would actually have?
 
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Here_to_learn said:
Show the source where the helicopter commander is criticised for disobedience. That should be documented in the report from the OSC.

Otherwise this is just your fantasy.
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Obviously the on scene commander is in on the conspiracy too.
 
Marras said:
Do you really think that we will believe you when you invent sources out of thin air?
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It isn’t necessarily invented out of thin air. It might just be that Vixen’s source doesn’t name the radio station.
 
Vixen said:
Drew Wilson's book came out in 2006, for a start, and I dare say the newspapers covered the story at the time.
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I dare say they didn't. On account of it being a crackpot conspiracy theory with no merit and no supporting evidence. Just sayin'
 
Vixen said:
Did you not understand my response?
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I did. Which is why I know you did not answer my question. The question was: where did you get the idea that the case with the Egyptians was an incident of enforced disappearance?

I said I have been following this case since 1994
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blah blah blah

You said lots of things. Where you got your notions that the case involving the two Egyptians involved enforce disappearance was not one of them.

You've not given your audience any reason to believe you arrived at that conclusion on your own by a cogent independent thought process, so the obvious surmise is that you simply borrowed the conclusion from a source. I want to know what that source was, if not Bollyn.
 
Vixen said:
The On Scene Commander ordered that any helicopters with defective winches should return to base.
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Do you think that helicopters whose winches had broken would have been of any use wrt rescuing survivors from the sea? You make this sound like it was some sort of discretionary decision on the part of the OSC, whereas of course it was axiomatically obvious to the crews of those helicopters with broken winches that they could now play no further productive part in the rescue operation, and that therefore the only viable course of action for them was to return to base.

(I mean, do you even yet know how air-sea rescues actually work? I'm far from confident that you do....)
 
Vixen said:
Drew Wilson's book came out in 2006, for a start, and I dare say the newspapers covered the story at the time.
Click to expand...

You've already conceded Wilson's book was not the source for the idea in question. Why are you bringing it up again?
 
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