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Discussion: Transwomen are not women (Part 7)

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qayak said:
If this is the new metric, why do trans-women need to use women's washrooms? There was no male on trans-female crime wave in Canada either. The entire issue is about feelings. You accept the feelings of trans-people but not those of men or women.
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The negative impact of trans discrimination is extremely well documented.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
The negative impact of trans discrimination is extremely well documented.
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Is it? Or is the high rate of suicide and mental health issues among trans people extremely well documented?


There is probably not enough data available for high quality study, but it would be interesting to see if letting males use the girls' bathrooms or locker rooms reduces the mental health problems or the suicide rate.
 
theprestige said:
Where is the negative impact of trans exclusion from women's sports documented?
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I would agree that sports and fair competition are a much stickier situation.

The great "bathroom freakout" seems to be a far clearer case of misplaced fear rooted in animus against trans people, wouldn't you agree?
 
Meadmaker said:
Is it? Or is the high rate of suicide and mental health issues among trans people extremely well documented?


There is probably not enough data available for high quality study, but it would be interesting to see if letting males use the girls' bathrooms or locker rooms reduces the mental health problems or the suicide rate.
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Cornell literature review seems pretty clear;

Research Findings
1. The scholarly literature makes clear that gender transition is effective in treating gender dysphoria and can significantly improve the well-being of transgender individuals.

2. Among the positive outcomes of gender transition and related medical treatments for transgender individuals are improved quality of life, greater relationship satisfaction, higher self-esteem and confidence, and reductions in anxiety, depression, suicidality, and substance use.
3. The positive impact of gender transition on transgender well-being has grown considerably in recent years, as both surgical techniques and social support have improved.

4. Regrets following gender transition are extremely rare and have become even rarer as both surgical techniques and social support have improved. Pooling data from numerous studies demonstrates a regret rate ranging from .3 percent to 3.8 percent. Regrets are most likely to result from a lack of social support after transition or poor surgical outcomes using older techniques.

5. Factors that are predictive of success in the treatment of gender dysphoria include adequate preparation and mental health support prior to treatment, proper follow-up care from knowledgeable providers, consistent family and social support, and high-quality surgical outcomes (when surgery is involved).

6. Transgender individuals, particularly those who cannot access treatment for gender dysphoria or who encounter unsupportive social environments, are more likely than the general population to experience health challenges such as depression, anxiety, suicidality and minority stress. While gender transition can mitigate these challenges, the health and well-being of transgender people can be harmed by stigmatizing and discriminatory treatment.

7. An inherent limitation in the field of transgender health research is that it is difficult to conduct prospective studies or randomized control trials of treatments for gender dysphoria because of the individualized nature of treatment, the varying and unequal circumstances of population members, the small size of the known transgender population, and the ethical issues involved in withholding an effective treatment from those who need it.

8. Transgender outcomes research is still evolving and has been limited by the historical stigma against conducting research in this field. More research is needed to adequately characterize and address the needs of the transgender population.
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https://whatweknow.inequality.cornell.edu/topics/lgbt-equality/what-does-the-scholarly-research-say-about-the-well-being-of-transgender-people/
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
I would agree that sports and fair competition are a much stickier situation.

The great "bathroom freakout" seems to be a far clearer case of misplaced fear rooted in animus against trans people, wouldn't you agree?
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I wouldn't even know what incident or policy you're referring to with "the great bathroom freakout". You said:
The negative impact of trans discrimination is extremely well documented.​
Is "the great bathroom freakout" extremely well documented? Is the negative impact on transsexuals from the "freakout" extremely well documented?

If so, cite the documentation, and then we can talk about whether I agree.
 
Meadmaker said:
Your research you quoted deals with people who undergo medical transition, including hormone replacement and surgery.

Again we keep coming back to medical transition versus self ID.
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And again we come to a point where this thread would be a lot shorter, and a lot less contentious, if it were narrowly about rights and accommodations associated with medical transitions under the direction of a reputable healthcare professional.
 
theprestige said:
I wouldn't even know what incident or policy you're referring to with "the great bathroom freakout". You said:
The negative impact of trans discrimination is extremely well documented.​
Is "the great bathroom freakout" extremely well documented? Is the negative impact on transsexuals from the "freakout" extremely well documented?

If so, cite the documentation, and then we can talk about whether I agree.
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maybe I don't understand your question? I think I've probably posted the same study about how trans people have huge apprehension about using public toilets 5 times now, including to the point of reportedly suffering from urinary tract infections at much higher levels than normal. Huge numbers reported being accosted using public toilets.

https://www.vox.com/2016/7/12/12161210/transgender-bathroom-survey

I'm not sure how I can prove a negative in regards to the claims by those opposed to these policies. The fears of the transphobes that allowing trans people to use the bathroom of their gender has not materialized in the places that have changed policy. It's an article of faith without a lick of evidence to support it.
 
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theprestige said:
And again we come to a point where this thread would be a lot shorter, and a lot less contentious, if it were narrowly about rights and accommodations associated with medical transitions under the direction of a reputable healthcare professional.
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Yes, social issues tend to be less complicated if you ignore the social elements. Very wise.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
2. Among the positive outcomes of gender transition and related medical treatments for transgender individuals are improved quality of life, greater relationship satisfaction, higher self-esteem and confidence, and reductions in anxiety, depression, suicidality, and substance use.
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One of the key points of contention here is what to do with people who say they are transgender but who do not undergo medical transition. You can't point to the success of medical transition as a justification for giving people who don't even undergo it whatever accommodations they want.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
maybe I don't understand your question? I think I've probably posted the same study about how trans people have huge apprehension about using public toilets 5 times now, including to the point of reportedly suffering from urinary tract infections at much higher levels than normal. Huge numbers reported being accosted using public toilets.

https://www.vox.com/2016/7/12/12161210/transgender-bathroom-survey

I'm not sure how I can prove a negative in regards to the claims by those opposed to these policies. The fears of the transphobes that allowing trans people to use the bathroom of their gender has not materialized in the places that have changed policy. It's an article of faith without a lick of evidence to support it.
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I don't consider a Vox.com survey to be evidence that "[t]he negative impact of trans discrimination is extremely well documented." To me, in this context, "extremely well documented" would be well-supported scientific papers in peer-reviewed journals.

This is a recurring problem for the trans-inclusion side of this debate. We keep asking for the science, and instead we get bureaucracy (the UK Office of National Statistics), or journalism (Vox).
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
The negative impact of trans discrimination is extremely well documented.
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And so are the negative impacts of women not having a safe space of their own. The answer to making trans people safe is not endangering women.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
I would agree that sports and fair competition are a much stickier situation.
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And yet you are willing to sacrifice the safety and livelihood of sportswomen so that selfish transwomen can enjoy victory?

My solution is not to allow transwomen to compete in any sport without testosterone testing at the very least.
 
theprestige said:
I don't consider a Vox.com survey to be evidence
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In fairness, they're only reporting on the survey. Their link is broken, but it appears that this is what they're reporting on.

But the survey itself is still problematic. It was an online anonymous survey, with all the accompanying uncertainty that implies based on possible sampling errors. Even the authors of the study acknowledge this, saying in the full report, "it is not appropriate to generalize the findings in this study to all transgender people."
 
theprestige said:
I don't consider a Vox.com survey to be evidence that "[t]he negative impact of trans discrimination is extremely well documented." To me, in this context, "extremely well documented" would be well-supported scientific papers in peer-reviewed journals.

This is a recurring problem for the trans-inclusion side of this debate. We keep asking for the science, and instead we get bureaucracy (the UK Office of National Statistics), or journalism (Vox).
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Seems to be much higher level of proof than what is proposed by the right wingers and transphobes freaking out about public toilets, which seems to be rooted entirely in anecdotes or straight up fabrications.
 
Ziggurat said:
In fairness, they're only reporting on the survey. Their link is broken, but it appears that this is what they're reporting on.

But the survey itself is still problematic. It was an online anonymous survey, with all the accompanying uncertainty that implies based on possible sampling errors. Even the authors of the study acknowledge this, saying in the full report, "it is not appropriate to generalize the findings in this study to all transgender people."
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In fairness, ST had the original source ready to hand, and still cited the journalism anyway. At this stage in the debate, I'm well past any desire to try to charitably rehabilitate trans-activist claims or sources.

And it doesn't surprise me that the underlying survey is problematic. It's a recurring phenomenon in woo claims: Citations that do not support, or even outright contradict, the woo claim they're supposed to support.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
Seems to be much higher level of proof than what is proposed by the right wingers and transphobes freaking out about public toilets, which seems to be rooted entirely in anecdotes or straight up fabrications.
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You're not discussing the topic with them. You're discussing the topic with us. But if you're going to hold yourself to the very low standard you imagine of the people you hate, and that this is the best you're going to come up with when asked for the science, that doesn't say much for trans-activism, does it?
 
theprestige said:
In fairness, ST had the original source ready to hand, and still cited the journalism anyway. At this stage in the debate, I'm well past any desire to try to charitably rehabilitate trans-activist claims or sources.
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Also true.
 
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