Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part IV

[Andy_Ross]

It probably wasn't secret at the time. However, once the rescued were brought to Huddinge and identified, then some kind of decision must have been made to remove them from the survivors list. Why, we can only guess at, but being the ship's senior crew, either they knew too much or they were deemed culpable but because it was a 'matter of national security' (=embarrassing for the government) all of this has been removed from public view. This is called making something 'classified'.

From now on, anyone who asks about these initially listed-as-rescued-people, must be slurred as a conspiracy theorist and lumped in with grape seed extract anti-pharma fanatics.

Then someone went to the Air force base and removed all record of the helicopter flight from the station logs, helicopter logs, crew logs, maintenance logs, fuel logs etc and swore the entire base to silence?

Then went to all the other organisations involved such as coastguard, air traffic control, rescue services, hospital staff, personnel at the landing grounds, other nations coastguards and rescue services, the the helicopters involved at the time etc and got them all to remove any record of the flight and they all swore to secrecy too?

 

[MarkCorrigan]

So still planning on ignoring my questions then Vixen? How very...honest of you.

 

[Andy_Ross]

The law courts decreed Sweden did do exactly that.

The European Court of Human Rights found in favour of one of the chaps under Article 3, Torture and inhumane treatment against Sweden.

What did it find?

 

[Andy_Ross]

This wasn't a war zone. It was extremely stressful for all - all of the rescuemen, victims, pilots. I can see Svensson carried out an act of bravery but a Gold Medal with Sword when none of his contemporaries got one, not even silver, seems totally disproportionate. It is obvious he accomplished something more clandestine.

Swedish Armed Forces Medal of Merit was not a medal awarded in wartime. It was awarded "to personnel who performed extraordinary effort that benefited the Swedish Armed Forces, for example, with resourcefulness and energetically action and with an example of excellent leadership and personal commitment."

Since 2008 a new award with the same name replaced it awarded for "action during combat or during war-like situations."

Personnel in Afghanistan got a different medal, they can't be directly compared to the medal awarded before 2008

There are different medals for actual wartime, some have never been awarded as Sweden hasn't been at war for a long time (Afghanistan didn't count as a war)
The medals awarded in wartime are
For Valour in the Field
For Valour at Sea
Royal Order of the Sword War Cross

 

[Andy_Ross]

Whoa! The context was a poster puzzling how the senior crew could be identified.

No, the context is your claim there was a secret mission to kidnap them.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Legally, they were found to have been disappeared.

Can you show where this was found?

 

[Andy_Ross]

Er, look up the 1990's - terrorist attacks all over the place.

How many passenger ships have been sunk at sea by terrorists?

 

[Andy_Ross]

It is evidenced by the Day One edict that the cause of the accident was 'the Hand of God' vis-a-vis a 'strong wave' knocking off the bow visor, which fell off due to a design fault.

This is all reported in Helsingin Sanomat by 29.9.1994. Time-stamped.

Where did Bildt say this on 'day one'?

You claim he was told within minutes and made a statement.

When this was looked at here in the thread we found no support for your claim.

 

[Vixen]

But you claim the officers were taken by special forces then delivered to the CIA.

What do the police and courts have to do with it?

I said that would seem the most likely explanation for the disappearance, as Sweden did the same thing six years later at the request of the CIA.

The fact that these people's names did appear on initial survivors lists indicates their ID was verified, at least insofar as name and date of birth.

 

[JesseCuster]

I said that would seem the most likely explanation for the disappearance, as Sweden did the same thing six years later at the request of the CIA.

But you said they were arrested so they could be interrogated by the police, as apparently the Stockholm chief of police was aching to interrogate them, because this stuff needs to go through the police before prosecutions can be processed, even though the Stockholm police chief has no apparent involvement with the investigation and the officers weren't prosecuted...

What's the narrative here again?

 

[JesseCuster]

Oh yeah, secret agent and elite frogman Svensson, codename Y74, was sent to rescue specifically the officers from the water immediately after the sinking because secret agent elite frogmen are specially trained to do this kind of thing, which involves looking for posh lifeboats and asking the occupants their names and birthdates which is a thing requiring elite frogmen...

And this was because the Stockholm police chief was aching to interrogate the crew, which he never did, because Swedish intelligence disappeared them on CIA rendition flights to be tried in secret at a black site...

Have I got that right?

 

[Marras]

It is evidenced by the Day One edict that the cause of the accident was 'the Hand of God' vis-a-vis a 'strong wave' knocking off the bow visor, which fell off due to a design fault.

This is all reported in Helsingin Sanomat by 29.9.1994. Time-stamped.

No.

I checked all stories that were published in Helsingin Sanomat of 29.9.1994 that contained the word 'Estonia' in it.

There is no mention of a 'strong wave' knocking off the bow visor.

There is an article with caption "Vettä pääsi autokannelle todennäköisesti keulasta Tutkijat kahlaavat huhujen ja tiedonsirujen tulvassa" (https://www.hs.fi/kotimaa/art-2000003370249.html , subscription needed to read it) that speaks about possible causes of the sinking. There are no mentions of waves knocking the bow visor off.

The article says that the probable cause for sinking was that water got in from front. Then it says "On täysi arvoitus, miksi vesi pääsi portin läpi". This translates to: "It is a complete mystery why water got through the gate".

Then it gives two speculations, identifying that they are speculations. One is that water got through poor quality sealing and the other is that a badly-fastened truck got loose and broke through the gate.

It also speculates on whether the visor and the gate were left open but concludes that it would be very unlikely.

 

[JesseCuster]

And after secret agent elite frogman Y64 did his duties, he chatted to reporters about it and was given a medal to shutup about his secret agent elite frogman duties, after he'd had a chat with some reporters...

 

[Marras]

It probably wasn't secret at the time. However, once the rescued were brought to Huddinge and identified, then some kind of decision must have been made to remove them from the survivors list. Why, we can only guess at, but being the ship's senior crew, either they knew too much or they were deemed culpable but because it was a 'matter of national security' (=embarrassing for the government) all of this has been removed from public view. This is called making something 'classified'.

From now on, anyone who asks about these initially listed-as-rescued-people, must be slurred as a conspiracy theorist and lumped in with grape seed extract anti-pharma fanatics.

That has absolutely nothing to do with what I wrote about.

You have said that Y-64 was launched within 15 minutes of alert.

In the message that I answered to, you said that the helicopter crew was given photos and details of the senior crew so that they could recognize them.

Do you think that it is possible to do that in just 15 minutes?

 

[erwinl]

No.

I checked all stories that were published in Helsingin Sanomat of 29.9.1994 that contained the word 'Estonia' in it.

There is no mention of a 'strong wave' knocking off the bow visor.

There is an article with caption "Vettä pääsi autokannelle todennäköisesti keulasta Tutkijat kahlaavat huhujen ja tiedonsirujen tulvassa" (https://www.hs.fi/kotimaa/art-2000003370249.html , subscription needed to read it) that speaks about possible causes of the sinking. There are no mentions of waves knocking the bow visor off.

The article says that the probable cause for sinking was that water got in from front. Then it says "On täysi arvoitus, miksi vesi pääsi portin läpi". This translates to: "It is a complete mystery why water got through the gate".

Then it gives two speculations, identifying that they are speculations. One is that water got through poor quality sealing and the other is that a badly-fastened truck got loose and broke through the gate.

It also speculates on whether the visor and the gate were left open but concludes that it would be very unlikely.

Gasp!

Are you suggesting that Vixen was speaking less than truthfully?!

 

[Andy_Ross]

I said that would seem the most likely explanation for the disappearance, as Sweden did the same thing six years later at the request of the CIA.

The fact that these people's names did appear on initial survivors lists indicates their ID was verified, at least insofar as name and date of birth.

No, Sweden did not disappear anyone, they sent two Egyptians back to Egypt.

 

[Marras]

Härkätie is Finland's oldest road. Härkätie was made into a proper motorway in 1950 and renamed Route-10 or Hämeentie aka kymppitie. Very surprised you claim you cannot find it.

I'm now wondering if it is completely impossible for you to write a post about historical stuff without having errors in it.

I'm also wondering how did you come to the conclusion that I didn't know about the existence of an old road called Härkätie from my posts.

I wrote that I couldn't find the specific article that you posted about, not that I wasn't aware that there once was a road that was colloquially called by that name (no official historical sources use that name). The thing is that late 19th century sources already speak of "Härkätie" as the old and obsolete name of the road that has been preserved in a childrens' rhyme. That's why I was surprised to see it being used as a name in 1918.

But the error this time is that you claim that Route 10 is the Härkätie. It isn't, Härkätie went some distance South of the modern road (except that at the Hämeenlinna end it went to North of it). Like the text that you quoted and then removed tells. As a tangent of a tangent of a tangent Härkätie is not necessarily the oldest road in Finland. We don't know exactly when it was built (but it was definitely before the Häme Castle was founded) and it is just possible that the Pilgrim Road of Saint Henry was older than it. But no one knows for certain.

 

[Vixen]

Then when the lists were checked and all the survivors accounted for they were removed as they weren't recued.

That is not so. The US Embassy in Tallinn put out a memo saying that at least 35 'are amongst the survivors, including second captain, Avo Piht'. 29.9.1994

As well as Bengt Stenmark - who was sacked shortly after - and the Helsingin Sanomat, the EVENING STANDARD in England also ran a report by Colin Adamson, "JAIL WARNING FOR THE GUILTY AS KEY WITNESS IS FOUND ALIVE', 29.9.1994. The text states that the second captain has survived and that investigators were waiting until 'Piht was in a fit mental state to give an account of what exactly happened'.

Where is your evidence they or Piht were never rescued?

 

[Andy_Ross]

That is not so. The US Embassy in Tallinn put out a memo saying that at least 35 'are amongst the survivors, including second captain, Avo Piht'. 29.9.1994

As well as Bengt Stenmark - who was sacked shortly after - and the Helsingin Sanomat, the EVENING STANDARD in England also ran a report by Colin Adamson, "JAIL WARNING FOR THE GUILTY AS KEY WITNESS IS FOUND ALIVE', 29.9.1994. The text states that the second captain has survived and that investigators were waiting until 'Piht was in a fit mental state to give an account of what exactly happened'.

Where is your evidence they or Piht were never rescued?

Second and third hand reports in newspapers have no weight.
You are claiming that they were alive and taken away by the CIA.
You haven't even shown an actual report from anyone that saw them or spoke to them. That's why you had to invent your secret helicopter flight crewed by secret agents

 

[Vixen]

LOL oh REALLY, Vixen?

Then show us what Wikipedia article we should be calling up, to educate us on the design considerations around bottom locks on pivoting bow visors of RORO ferries.

(If you're saying it came from Wikipedia, it must (by definition) mean that you have already sought and found this information there. And therefore it should take you very little effort to re-locate your source and share it with us. Shouldn't it, Vixen?)

Why would you even need wikipedia. A child could tell you how it works.

Take a piece of A4 paper and three drawing pins.

Place one drawing in the top corner on one side of the paper and another on the opposite top corner and press them down into a wall or board. Place the third in the middle of the paper at the bottom and ditto.

Now remove the bottom drawing pin. Does the paper still remain in place, perfectly secure?

Replace the bottom pin (which represents the Atlantic lock and the paper the bow visor) and now remove one of the pins on either of the corners. What happens?

This demonstrates where the weight of the paper is being bourne.


The bottom pin is merely an accessory, which takes some of the strain off the top two pins (i.e. the side locks) but not by any significant amount.

Now you can see why even if as the JAIC claim the Atlantic lock broke off because of a strong wave, it doesn't ipso facto lead to the two side locks also breaking off.

In any case, Dr.-Ing. Hans-Werner Hoffmeister showed that the starboard side lock was weakest and would have broken first had the scenario happened as the JAIC claim it did.