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Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part IV

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Marras said:
I was interested in searching for that particular article. Like I said, I found articles about Red atrocities, but couldn't find the correct search terms for finding a murder happening on Härkätie. Part of the reason why I was interested in it was that the name Härkätie fell out of active use already a couple of centuries ago and it was very curious that someone would still use it in 1918 to refer to contemporary events.

But anyway, don't spend time trying to search for that one. That a Finnish White newspaper would report about atrocities (both real and imagined) committed by Reds is not an extraordinary claim needing special proof.

What is extraordinary is your claim that Times published accounts based on information sent by spies embedded into German armed forces. Spend your time searching those articles.

I don't believe that you will ever give us an accurate reference for that. I believe that you misremembered what you read long time ago and now your ego prevents you from admitting that.

[Edited to add something completely irrelevant to Estonia, just a tangent for the Härkätie tangent: doing a bit more searching in digitaaliarkisto I noticed that the name 'Härkätie' was in active use at Somero in the early 20th century. So it is plausible that someone discussing a murder happening at Somero (a few Whites were murdered there) could use it in a newspaper report. I couldn't find printed references to the name in a non-historical context from any other place.]
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Härkätie is Finland's oldest road. Härkätie was made into a proper motorway in 1950 and renamed Route-10 or Hämeentie aka kymppitie. Very surprised you claim you cannot find it.
 
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JesseCuster said:
Ok.

And what does this have to do with the Stockholm police chief?

Remember this is a response as to why the Stockholm police chief would be itching to interview the officers.

How did he know about the smuggling of Russian stuff? How did he know the ship sank because if sabotage? How did he know the officers had anything to do with it?

Is the sinking of Estonian passenger liners in international waters in his jurisdiction to investigate?

Why were the crew disappeared on CIA rendition flights to black sites to be put on secret trial if they were apprehended because the Stockholm police chief was itching to interview them? Did he interrogate them at a CIA black site?

What the **** are you rambling about?
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For a prosecution to be processed it has to first go through the police, at least in the UK.

Each department is quite separate from each other. It would not be the job of the police to decide court matters.
 
Marras said:
Remember, you are claiming that the secret helicopter flight took of in 15 minutes after the alert.

You are now claiming that in that 15 minutes they could get a special-operations guy, brief him about the mission with photos and personal details, and to get him in the helicopter to execute the mission.
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It probably wasn't secret at the time. However, once the rescued were brought to Huddinge and identified, then some kind of decision must have been made to remove them from the survivors list. Why, we can only guess at, but being the ship's senior crew, either they knew too much or they were deemed culpable but because it was a 'matter of national security' (=embarrassing for the government) all of this has been removed from public view. This is called making something 'classified'.

From now on, anyone who asks about these initially listed-as-rescued-people, must be slurred as a conspiracy theorist and lumped in with grape seed extract anti-pharma fanatics.
 
LondonJohn said:
No, Vixen. We've been through this numerous times now.

Sweden didn't "disappear" those two men. It deported them. What Egypt did with the men once they arrived back in Cairo.... is a totally separate matter from what Sweden did or did not do.
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The law courts decreed Sweden did do exactly that.

The European Court of Human Rights found in favour of one of the chaps under Article 3, Torture and inhumane treatment against Sweden.
 
Jack by the hedge said:
But you don't have to arrest them to disappear them. You arrest them if you intend to detain them lawfully. You do keep deliberately muddling these concepts up.
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Someone 'high up' has to decide whether to allow the CIA's assumed request for extradition, as it did six years later in the case of the two Egyptians.

That seems to be a likely explanation of what happened.
 
Jack by the hedge said:
He did his duty. When a colleague was injured he stepped in and took over his duties.
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This wasn't a war zone. It was extremely stressful for all - all of the rescuemen, victims, pilots. I can see Svensson carried out an act of bravery but a Gold Medal with Sword when none of his contemporaries got one, not even silver, seems totally disproportionate. It is obvious he accomplished something more clandestine.
 
Vixen said:
This wasn't a war zone. It was extremely stressful for all - all of the rescuemen, victims, pilots. I can see Svensson carried out an act of bravery but a Gold Medal with Sword when none of his contemporaries got one, not even silver, seems totally disproportionate. It is obvious he accomplished something more clandestine.
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LMAOOOOOO
 
Vixen said:
At that stage they do not know whether it is a terrorist attack.
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So why were they told to look for officers in posh boats wearing survival suits, ask them their names and birthdates to verify who they were, fill the helicopter with those peopje and take them to a different location than the other survivors so they could be interrogated, instead of just doing their jobs as search and rescue in the aftermath of a catastrophic event?

Why would anyone be so eager to immediately interrogate the officers such as to give SAR crews special instructions on who to rescue and what to do with them? Why not just rescue everyone and then when everyone who can be saved is safe, then have the authorities investigate what happened?
 
Vixen said:
At that stage they do not know whether it is a terrorist attack.
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They also didn't know if it was Godzilla.

Why would it be a terrorist attack?

had Sweden suffered any other ship sinkings at the hands of terrorists?
 
Vixen said:
As I said, I am 100% sure Bildt knew exactly what the cause of the accident was.

Ask yourself, who would be above the law in this case? (Hint: someone not democratically elected.)
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But you haven't shown any evidence that he knew the cause. Your claim that he was told right away and made a statement has been shown to be false.
 
Vixen said:
A helicopter winch and a whole helicopter crew to bring him to safety should danger strike, he heroically saved seven or eight persons. However, how is this worth more in terms of a medal than a solider in Afghanistan surrounded by road bombs, mortar shell and snipers, who only got silver?
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Different cases in different circumstances. Why the medals were awarded will beo in the Citation.
 
JesseCuster said:
So why were they told to look for officers in posh boats wearing survival suits, ask them their names and birthdates to verify who they were, fill the helicopter with those peopje and take them to a different location than the other survivors so they could be interrogated, instead of just doing their jobs as search and rescue in the aftermath of a catastrophic event?

Why would anyone be so eager to immediately interrogate the officers such as to give SAR crews special instructions on who to rescue and what to do with them? Why not just rescue everyone and then when everyone who can be saved is safe, then have the authorities investigate what happened?
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Whoa! The context was a poster puzzling how the senior crew could be identified.
 
Captain_Swoop said:
But you haven't shown any evidence that he knew the cause. Your claim that he was told right away and made a statement has been shown to be false.
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It is evidenced by the Day One edict that the cause of the accident was 'the Hand of God' vis-a-vis a 'strong wave' knocking off the bow visor, which fell off due to a design fault.

This is all reported in Helsingin Sanomat by 29.9.1994. Time-stamped.
 
Vixen said:
For a prosecution to be processed it has to first go through the police, at least in the UK.

Each department is quite separate from each other. It would not be the job of the police to decide court matters.
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But you claim the officers were taken by special forces then delivered to the CIA.

What do the police and courts have to do with it?
 
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