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Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part IV

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Jack by the hedge said:
It had been a hospital ship for a time several years before. It wasn't any more. When it was sunk it was transporting a mix of military and civilians. Mostly civilians, but sadly that does not prevent it's being a legitimate military target for the Russians. It was a terrible disaster but it was not a war crime.
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Perhaps open a thread on it because it is not as clear cut as you make out.
 
Jack by the hedge said:
It's worth noting that one of Vixen's arguments for a secret early flight (which none of the ships at the scene seems to have noticed) is that the documented flight would have been too late to make that day's edition of Aftonbladet.

But the Aftonbladet article she quotes presents a slightly mangled but easily identifiable version of the events of the documented flight from around 6am.

That puts a spread of torpedoes into that claim.
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Look at the list of helicopters I provided. The Finnish guys saved 35 in one night. There is no song and dance about losing a flipper in the sea.

The JAIC had to beef up Y64 antics to provide a cloak to explain how he got his Gold Medal with Sword. I dare say it is broadly true, except they omit the earlier rescue at circa 0300, as it is clearly classified and all mention of the previously listed survived Estonian crew removed from public view.
 
Reformed Offlian said:
She has also claimed that the reporter must have gotten the 0200 claim from Svensson himself. That could only have happened after he was finished with *all* his rescue work, unless she thinks the rescue men would take a break to give interviews while there was still rescue work to be done.
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JAIC 7.5.5 states:

Y 64 brought the survivor to Utö. The medical personnel on board were left to assist the Finnish nursing staff. As requested by the staff, Y 64 transported 20 survivors from Utö to Turku University Central Hospital. After this Y 64 got permission from the OSC to return to Berga to repair the broken winch, and landed there at 1530 hrs.
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The reporter was Sven-Anders Eriksson. I doubt he could have made the story up. The words obviously came from Svensson's own mouth.
 
JesseCuster said:
Ha.

Earlier in this thread you claimed that the RMS Olympic was "built as a warship" because it was used as a troop transport during WWI, even though it was built as a passenger liner and most definitely wasn't "built as a warship".

Strange how a civilian passenger ship can be "built as a warship" in one instance because it was a civilian ship used as a troop carrier during wartime yet another "was never a war ship" even though it was also a civilian ship used as a troop carrier during wartime.

It's almost like Vixen's making stuff up off the top of her head as she thinks it suits whatever case she thinks she's making at the time and damn the contradictions!
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It is a matter of recorded historical fact that the Wilhelm Gustloff when it was sunk was carrying out a mass evacuation of civilians. Women, children, the injured, a whole bunch of pregnant women. (One gave birth and the baby miraculously was rescued and promptly adopted by some officer who couldn't have children).
 
JesseCuster said:
I came across this from Vixen while searching the thread:


So you've had a radical change of heart since then?
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Perhaps provide context, such as the post I was responding to and my comment in full? I notice it is in quotation marks so clearly I am refuting the (twisted?) wording of the OP or similar.


Let's see if I am right.
 
Vixen said:
AKA how to lie with statistics. It is well-known that the far-right has infiltrated various anarchist-type subsections and anti-vaxxers, covid-is-a-hoax, they-are-taking-away-your-freedom malcontents. Smearing someone with a negative label doesn't really change anything.
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I'm not sure what you are saying here? In what way am I "smearing someone with a negative label"?

And what lying is going on - what is wrong with the survey, or in what way did I misrepresent it?
 
Vixen said:
It is no good side-stepping the facts. It doesn't change the fact Svensson got the highest level of Swedish Defence Forces Medal of Merit the Gold with Sword for his activities regarding the Estonia. The JAIC states plainly his helicopter Y64 arrived at circa 0600 and rescued one.

The other fact is that MRCC in Sweden has a protocol that a couple of helicopters are always on standby and must leave 'within 15 minutes' when ordered, as they were. (cf Estonia, Finnbirch). Berga is a naval base so it shouldn't be a surprise their helicopters are assault or anti-submarine. They have to be prepared for any eventuality.
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Standby Helicopters on the night of the sinking in both Finland and Sweden were on one hour standby with one of the Swedish helicopters on two hour standby.
Naval Anti Submarine Helicopters were not on any kind of standby and would have to be taken out of hangers and made ready from 'cold'.

Where are you getting the 15 minute standby from?

I think you are confusing services.

Police and Air ambulance helicopters can be airborne in 10 to 15 minutes but they are different to search and rescue. They are much smaller helicopters and are in use most days, or in the case of a police helicopter every day but they can't be used for maritime search and rescue.
This is an interesting news story about response times for SAR in Sweden.
https://www.rcinet.ca/eye-on-the-arctic/2016/02/17/swedens-arctic-rescue-chopper-fiasco/


Y 64 rescued one man then it's winch failed leaving it's rescue man in the water. He was recovered by Y 74 where he took over the duties of rescue man to replace the injured rescue man of that helicopter.
 
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Vixen said:
The Swedish government archives on the Estonia incident clearly shows Y64 rescued one and Y74 six.

Participating helicopters:
Nationality Helicopter Number saved
Finnish Sea rescue helicopter OH-HVG 37
Swedish Air Force helicopter Q 97 15
Finnish Border Guard helicopter OH-HVD 14
Swedish Air Force helicopter Q 99 9
Finnish Border Guard helicopter OH-HVF 8
Finnish Air Force Helicopter X 92 8
Finnish Air Force Helicopter X 42 6
Swedish Air Force helicopter Q 91 6
Swedish Navy helicopter Y 68 6
Swedish Navy helicopter Y 74 6
Swedish Air Force helicopter Q 95 6
Finnish Border Guard helicopter OH-HVH 4
Finnish Air Force helicopter X 62 1
Swedish Navy helicopter Y 65 1
Swedish Navy helicopter Y 64 1
Finnish Air Force Helicopter X 82 -
Swedish Navy helicopter Y 69 -
Swedish Navy helicopter Y 72 -
Swedish Navy helicopter Y 73 -
Swedish Navy helicopter Y 75 -
Swedish Navy helicopter Y 76 -
Swedish Air Force helicopter O 98 -


Svensson helicopter Y64 or even sharing (aw, how sweet) with Y74, still only makes it seven, after arriving five hours after Estonia sank.

How come none of the other Swedish guys got a Gold with Sword medal?

You just cannot answer that.
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he rescued 7 as he was the rescue man on two helicopters. One of those recovered was dead, a dead body does not count as a rescue.

He got the medal because he got stranded in the sea, was rescued and took over duties from another injured rescue man and worked until he himself was injured.
 
Vixen said:
Look at the list of helicopters I provided. The Finnish guys saved 35 in one night. There is no song and dance about losing a flipper in the sea.

The JAIC had to beef up Y64 antics to provide a cloak to explain how he got his Gold Medal with Sword. I dare say it is broadly true, except they omit the earlier rescue at circa 0300, as it is clearly classified and all mention of the previously listed survived Estonian crew removed from public view.
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Why do you keep repeating this lie?
 
Vixen said:
It is a matter of recorded historical fact that the Wilhelm Gustloff when it was sunk was carrying out a mass evacuation of civilians. Women, children, the injured, a whole bunch of pregnant women. (One gave birth and the baby miraculously was rescued and promptly adopted by some officer who couldn't have children).
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Your point? it was an enemy ship in wartime.

43 passenger ships over 10,000 tons were sunk in WW2

Here is a list of just those where the death toll was over 150 sunk by just submarines, not surface or air action.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ships_sunk_by_submarines_by_death_toll

I already gave a list of just hospital ships that were sunk in WW2
 
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Here_to_learn said:
I'm not sure what you are saying here? In what way am I "smearing someone with a negative label"?

And what lying is going on - what is wrong with the survey, or in what way did I misrepresent it?
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Anyone can construct a survey to show that a person who believes X, Y or Z is also A, B or C. Given that the majority of the population are working class it is glaringly obvious that there will be more lower class/lower educated people in any opinion poll. It doesn't follow that people who believe X, Y or Z must be stupid and lower class.

IMV if a third of the Swedish public believe that the government is 'hiding something' about the Estonia then that is a huge number, bearing in mind it happened 27 years ago, many will never have even heard of it, if not most, and the fact the Swedish government spent 65m trying to cover the wreck with concrete/pebbles instead of 5m on salvage, together with a huge 'information campaign' with a ministry of information to persuade people to accept the JAIC report conclusion. It is a surprise, given the power of the state-subidised media and the government, that people are still asking questions after all this time, not a reflection on people's stupidity, gullibility, lack of education, low IQ or insanity.
 
Captain_Swoop said:
Standby Helicopters on the night of the sinking in both Finland and Sweden were on one hour standby with one of the Swedish helicopters on two hour standby.
Naval Anti Submarine Helicopters were not on any kind of standby and would have to be taken out of hangers and made ready from 'cold'.

Where are you getting the 15 minute standby from?

I think you are confusing services.

Police and Air ambulance helicopters can be airborne in 10 to 15 minutes but they are different to search and rescue. They are much smaller helicopters and are in use most days, or in the case of a police helicopter every day but they can't be used for maritime search and rescue.
This is an interesting news story about response times for SAR in Sweden.
https://www.rcinet.ca/eye-on-the-arctic/2016/02/17/swedens-arctic-rescue-chopper-fiasco/


Y 64 rescued one man then it's winch failed leaving it's rescue man in the water. He was recovered by Y 74 where he took over the duties of rescue man to replace the injured rescue man of that helicopter.
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Today it's a different situation,.

The Swedish Maritime Administration operates SAR helicopters, on a 15 minute standby. They have a total of 7 helicopters, 5 of them being operative from Umeå, Norrtälje, Kristianstad, Visby and Gothenburg. However during the last couple of years, they've staged one helicopter in Kiruna during the winter, specifically for exercises. If if remember correctly, this year it's the Visby base that was moved to Kiruna. All crew rotate up to Kiruna for the exercises.

The only other maritime SAR organisation with 15 minute standby is the volunteer crewed Swedish Sea Rescue Society. Others parts of the Swedish maritime SAR organisation (Coast Guard, Pilots boats, Police and so on) respond when they can, for example if they happen to be nearby.
 
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Captain_Swoop said:
Standby Helicopters on the night of the sinking in both Finland and Sweden were on one hour standby with one of the Swedish helicopters on two hour standby.
Naval Anti Submarine Helicopters were not on any kind of standby and would have to be taken out of hangers and made ready from 'cold'.

Where are you getting the 15 minute standby from?

I think you are confusing services.

Police and Air ambulance helicopters can be airborne in 10 to 15 minutes but they are different to search and rescue. They are much smaller helicopters and are in use most days, or in the case of a police helicopter every day but they can't be used for maritime search and rescue.
This is an interesting news story about response times for SAR in Sweden.
https://www.rcinet.ca/eye-on-the-arctic/2016/02/17/swedens-arctic-rescue-chopper-fiasco/


Y 64 rescued one man then it's winch failed leaving it's rescue man in the water. He was recovered by Y 74 where he took over the duties of rescue man to replace the injured rescue man of that helicopter.
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I gave you a direct citation of Sweden's own safety board. It is called HAVKOM and its mission is: The Swedish Accident Investigation Board (SHK) is a state authority whose task is to investigate accidents and incidents in order to improve safety. SHK, on ​​the other hand, does not handle issues of guilt or liability, whether in civil law, criminal law or administrative law.


Standby protocol for MRCC/ARCC commands is to be ready to fly within fifteen minutes, and as we saw in the Finnbirch accident, the two helicopters took off within ten minutes.

From your own link, it underlines this protocol:

Officials don’t deny the response time was long and said it was wrong to publicize the craft’s response rate as 15 minutes.
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Captain_Swoop said:
he rescued 7 as he was the rescue man on two helicopters. One of those recovered was dead, a dead body does not count as a rescue.

He got the medal because he got stranded in the sea, was rescued and took over duties from another injured rescue man and worked until he himself was injured.
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Citation please of how you know, "He got the medal because he got stranded in the sea, was rescued and took over duties from another injured rescue man and worked until he himself was injured."

He got the Gold with Sword 'because he got stranded in the sea and had to be rescued'?

Really?
 
Vixen said:
Anyone can construct a survey to show that a person who believes X, Y or Z is also A, B or C. Given that the majority of the population are working class it is glaringly obvious that there will be more lower class/lower educated people in any opinion poll.
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Hence the use of % instead of actual numbers. There was a large percentage of those with a lower level of education that agreed with the statement, and higher percentage of those with a higher level of education that disagreed with the statement. All the information is on the page I linked to, including the excel where this can be verified.

Vixen said:
It doesn't follow that people who believe X, Y or Z must be stupid and lower class.
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Exactly, it doesn't. So it would be really stupid to draw that conclusion. I didn't do that. Why do you bring it up?


Vixen said:
IMV if a third of the Swedish public believe that the government is 'hiding something' about the Estonia then that is a huge number
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27% is just over a fourth, not a third.
 
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