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Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part IV

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Vixen said:
Please do if you would be very kind, if you wouldn't mind, read the JAIC report

7.5.5
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Seriously???? Seriously???????

We all agree that Y64 rescued only one survivor.

Svensson was the rescue man on Y64 when it rescued that survivor.

Svensson then transferred to Y74, where - as the rescue man on Y74 now - he rescued another 7 survivors.


I - like most others here - am frankly astonished that you remain unable to understand all of this. Although there is another, less charitable, interpretation of your continued ear-blocking exercise.....
 
LondonJohn said:
Seriously???? Seriously???????

We all agree that Y64 rescued only one survivor.

Svensson was the rescue man on Y64 when it rescued that survivor.

Svensson then transferred to Y74, where - as the rescue man on Y74 now - he rescued another 7 survivors.
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Six, not seven. The Y 69 guy self-rescued.
 
Vixen said:
We know Y74 Svensson got the highest medal so we know for sure he did far more than turning up late and rescuing one.
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This is nonsensical and flat-out wrong. As you've now been told more than a dozen times.

Svensson served as the rescue man on both Y74 and Y64. The person (Svensson) and the helicopter (Y74 or Y64) are entirely different entities that are totally decoupled from each other.
 
Exactly. "Y64 Svensson" and "Y74 Svensson" are not a thing. "Y64 Svensson" did not get a medal. Svensson got a medal.

Y64 was correctly credited with one of Svensson's rescues. Y74 was correctly credited with the rest of Svensson's rescues.
 
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Vixen said:
It used to be an hour but from Sweden it was defo 15 minutes. Berga is a huge naval base, not just a Coast Guard.
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What's your source for believing it was "defo 15 minutes" and are you quite sure you read and understood it correctly?
 
Jack by the hedge said:
It was not his winch. It was Y64's winch.

The winch is part of the helicopter's equipment, not some cyborg appendage bolted onto the crewman. You do comprehend that, right?

When he was picked up by Y74 and their rescue man was too badly hurt to carry on, he took over as Y74's rescue man.

Why do you deny this?
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I don't think Vixen can have the first idea of the mechanics and personnel wrt a helicopter winch system.

Perhaps Vixen would benefit from a photograph.....

In the photo below, the various elements are as follows:

The winch man is the person crouched in the side door of the helicopter; he is responsible for operating the winch, guiding/stabilising the deployed winch cable, and communicating with the rescue man and the flight crew.

The winch is the piece of machinery contained within the box just above the side door. The winch is attached to the fuselage of the helicopter. The winch extends or retracts the winch cable, under command from the winch man.

The winch cable is the steel line which has the winch on one end and the rescue man on the other end. The winch cable extends or retracts as commanded by the winch (which is itself commanded by the winch man). In this photo, the winch cable can be seen passing down from the winch, through the guiding hand of the winch man, down to the harnesses & clips of the rescue man and the person being rescued.

The rescue man is the person in the photo who is wearing the orange immersion suit and is in an upright orientation*. The rescue man is attached to the winch cable by means of a (detachable) mechanical clip and harness. The winch man sends the rescue man down on the winch cable, so that the rescue man can help those in distress and (where appropriate) bring survivors back up to the helicopter using a separate harness (note that other than in extraordinary circumstances, the rescue man will always accompany each rescued individual back up to the helicopter).

You will notice, Vixen, that 1) the rescue man is not the winch, 2) the rescue man is not defined by any particular winch on any particular helicopter, and 3) the rescue man on Helicopter A can switch to becoming the rescue man on Helicopter B simply by unclipping from the winch on Helicopter A and clipping onto the winch of Helicopter B. Which is precisely what Svensson did that night (moving from helicopter Y64 to helicopter Y74).

Hope that helps, Vixen. (Probably won't though, if precedent is anything to go by.....)


* The other person in orange - the one in a reclined/seated posture - is the person being rescued; they are wearing an orange immersion suit as well because this is a photo from a training exercise.



(Click to enlarge for clarity)
 
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Vixen said:
It used to be an hour but from Sweden it was defo 15 minutes. Berga is a huge naval base, not just a Coast Guard.
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Where are you getting 15 minutes from?

the helicopters on standby were on 1 hour, the Navy helicopter was on 2 hour. Y 64 and Y 74 were not standby helicopters, they were anti submarine warfare helicopters. they would never have been on standby for search and rescue.

I just posted all the details of the standby times and both take off and arrival on scene times for the Swedish helicopters.

Not one of them was on 15 minute standby.

Berga may be a big base but the helicopter on standby there was on 2 hour standby, not one hour.
If the one hour standby helicopters were all engaged or had to be stood down it would have been brought up to one hour standby.

As it happened the Estonia sinking was such a big emergency all the standby helicopters were activated and other helicopters, such as Y64, 74, 68 and 69 had to be brought in to supplement them.

26 helicopters participated in the rescue operation and search for bodies. Of these eight came from Finland, 14 from Sweden, one from Estonia, two from Denmark and one from the Russian Federation. In addition five helicopters served as logistical support, e.g. by transporting first-aid personnel.
 
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Captain_Swoop said:
Where are you getting 15 minutes from?

the helicopters on standby were on 1 hour, the Navy helicopter was on 2 hour. Y 64 and Y74 were not standby helicopters, they were anti submarine warfare helicopters. they would never have been on standby for search and rescue.

I just posted all the details of the standby times and both take off and arrival on scene times for the Swedish helicopters.

Not one of them was on 15 minute standby.
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Vixen just knows these things, dontcha know. SAR (and anti-submarine) helicopter scramble times are hard-wired into her DNA.
 
Only the two Finnish helicopters OH-HVG and OH-HVD were capable of using the landing pads on the ships at the scene.
That is why more helicopters than anticipated were needed as survivors had to be ferried back to land bases.
 
Vixen said:
Sabotage is often due to terrorists making a political point. The Soviets who torpedoed Wilhelm Gustloff breaching the convention you do not target hsopital ships had written on each of their torpedoes IIRC, one for Russia, one for Leningrad and the other two of a similar gung-ho ilk (one torpedo got stuck).
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You're going with the Geneva Convention?

Must I remind you what the RAF and 8th Air Force were doing on a nightly basis to Germany? It was war, and after what the Nazis did to the Russians, nobody cared, or cares.

You continue to be bad at this.
 
Axxman300 said:
You're going with the Geneva Convention?

Must I remind you what the RAF and 8th Air Force were doing on a nightly basis to Germany? It was war, and after what the Nazis did to the Russians, nobody cared, or cares.

You continue to be bad at this.
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Also, Gustlov was not a hospital ship.
 
Captain_Swoop said:
Also, Gustlov was not a hospital ship.
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From wiki:

"Originally constructed as a cruise ship for the Nazi Strength Through Joy (Kraft durch Freude) organization in 1937, Wilhelm Gustloff had been requisitioned by the Kriegsmarine (German navy) in 1939. She served as a hospital ship in 1939 and 1940. She was then assigned as a floating barracks for naval personnel in Gotenhafen before being armed and put into service to transport evacuees in 1945. "

Other sources confirm this.

Yet again vixen is shown to have been talking utter bollocks.
 
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