Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part IV

[Mojo]

Wait.... they were sent to the scene to seek and destroy the submarine - the Swedish submarine, no less - that was responsible for holing the Estonia below the waterline?

That explains the tracks! It must have been crawling along the seabed to avoid the helicopter.

So let’s get the story straight: the Estonia started to list and therefore inevitably turned turtle, the submarine holed it below the waterline, but because the ship was upside down the hole is in a area that would normally be above the waterline, the hole sank the ship and then the submarine crawled away along the sea floor to avoid the helicopters. Right, Vixen?

 

[Vixen]

Why is your response to that post "Deary me", Vixen? Please explain.

C_S claims he would have given Y74 Ollie Moberg a medal.

Why didn't the rescue guys in the following helicopters not get a medal like Svensson?

.............................................. Rescued
Swedish Air Force helicopter Q 97 15
Swedish Air Force helicopter Q 99 9
Swedish Air Force helicopter Q 91 6
Swedish Navy helicopter Y 68 6
Swedish Navy helicopter Y 74 6
Swedish Air Force helicopter Q 95 6

And no, Svensson did not swap places with another helicopter. His pilot was Agne Asplund of Y64, at all times during the rescue.

 

[Vixen]

Even if it were absolute rubbish, it is an accurate description of what the official account says, unlike yours.

Remember, the subject in dispute here is how you have characterized what the JAIC report and other official sources say.

You are claiming that it only credits Svensson with having only rescued the one person brought back on Y 64. It does not. The JAIC report very clearly states that he rescued the six people brought back on Y 74 as well.

Your dismissal of this as "absolute rubbish" does not change the fact that that is what the report says, nor does it entitle you to misrepresent it.

"Y 64" in the JAIC report is not a reference to Svensson. "The Y 64 rescue man" is. Show me where the JAIC report says that "the Y 64 rescue man" rescued one and only one person in total.



That is not what the JAIC report says, is it? It says that after the winch on Y 64 malfunctioned, Svensson cut loose and was subsequently brought on board Y 74. The rescue man from Y 69 was *also* brought on board Y 74, after having cut loose from his original helicopter.

These things happen in emergencies. People become separated from the teams they set out with, and end up with other teams. Sometimes, as in Svensson's case, they are in a condition to continue work with the new team, and sometimes they are not.

Again, it doesn't matter for the issue at hand whether you buy the JAIC account, the point is that is what the JAIC account *reports*.



That is not what the JAIC report says happened. Remember, you are making claims not just about what you think actually happened, but what the JAIC report *says* happened. And those claims (both of them, actually) are false.



I assume you mean "plain language". It does. You seem to be the only person in this discussion who doesn't understand what it says.



"Seeming?" Are you suggesting the situation surrounding the Estonia disaster *wasn't* chaotic?

He may have been 'brought on board Y74' when his winch momentarily failed. However, he is still only credited in the official JAIC archives, as stored in the Swedish public records of the Estonia, with rescuing 'one survivor'.

You haven't been able to prove Svensson 'saved eight according to the JAIC' you just made that up and tried to claim the six Moberg saved via Y74 was really Svensson's.

 

[Mojo]

And no, Svensson did not swap places with another helicopter. His pilot was Agne Asplund of Y64, at all times during the rescue.

She does think Svensson was a helicopter, doesn’t she?

 

[Vixen]

Seriously?! You still ignorantly believe that Y64 and Y74 refer to individual people?!!!

Y64 and Y74 refer to helicopters, Vixen. You've now been explicitly told this (with proof) several times.

This is so very embarrassing.

Each helicopter had designated winched rescuers.


Svensson was with Y64 and his pilot was Agne Asplund.

Y74 was Olle Moberg.


Moberg rescued six. He is rightly credited.

The pair did not rescue 14 between them after 0500 /0600 as the JAIC claim and clearly blinded you with its prolix word salad.

 

[Andy_Ross]

C_S claims he would have given Y74 Ollie Moberg a medal.

Why didn't the rescue guys in the following helicopters not get a medal like Svensson?

.............................................. Rescued
Swedish Air Force helicopter Q 97 15
Swedish Air Force helicopter Q 99 9
Swedish Air Force helicopter Q 91 6
Swedish Navy helicopter Y 68 6
Swedish Navy helicopter Y 74 6
Swedish Air Force helicopter Q 95 6

Well, they are all brave men but you don't get a medal for being brave and doing your job. You get a medal for going above and beyond the normal expectation.

And no, Svensson did not swap places with another helicopter. His pilot was Agne Asplund of Y64, at all times during the rescue.

That is a lie.

 

[Vixen]

Did they pin a medal on the helicopter?

No. Stop pretending you can't understand that.

Svensson received the Swedish Armed Forces Medal of Merit, Gold with Sword, the highest possible accolade for his rescue mission re Estonia.

Nobody else did.


The sok.riksarkivit tells you clearly he rescued one via Y64.


I dare say he did rescue eight during the 0300 mission not mentioned anywhere in the JAIC report. Classified. Top Secret.

 

[Vixen]

References to Y 64 are not references to Svensson. Svensson worked from more than one helicopter. It's right there in "plain English" in the JAIC report. There, Svensson is referred to as "the Y 64 rescue man".

Not "Y 64". That's the helicopter, not the person. The report, unlike you, keeps its referents straight in this.

No he did not.

 

[Andy_Ross]

He may have been 'brought on board Y74' when his winch momentarily failed. However, he is still only credited in the official JAIC archives, as stored in the Swedish public records of the Estonia, with rescuing 'one survivor'.

You haven't been able to prove Svensson 'saved eight according to the JAIC' you just made that up and tried to claim the six Moberg saved via Y74 was really Svensson's.

His winch did not 'momentarily fail' It failed completely.

The 'Y' designation helicopters were anti submarine helicopters, their winching capability was not the same as that fitted to dedicated SAR helicopters, several of them failed.

It left him stranded in the water and he was picked up by Y 74 called in for the task.

When the rescue man on Y 74 was injured he took over the job.

Helicopter Y 64 is credited with one survivor as it had to leave when it's winch broke.

He saved 7 not 8. One of those recovered was already dead.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Each helicopter had designated winched rescuers.


Svensson was with Y64 and his pilot was Agne Asplund.

Y74 was Olle Moberg.


Moberg rescued six. He is rightly credited.

The pair did not rescue 14 between them after 0500 /0600 as the JAIC claim and clearly blinded you with its prolix word salad.

Have you read the report and what it said about the helicopter rescues?

Did you understand it?

(I don't mean did you agree with it, I just mean did you comprehend the meaning of the text.)

 

[Reformed Offlian]

He may have been 'brought on board Y74' when his winch momentarily failed. However, he is still only credited in the official JAIC archives, as stored in the Swedish public records of the Estonia, with rescuing 'one survivor'.

Then how do you explain that the JAIC says this:

Y 74 had difficulties in locating Y 64 since the OSC lacked exact information on the position of each helicopter. The Y 64 rescue man was holding onto a body, which was winched up to Y 74 with the assistance of Y 74's own rescue man. When the body had been recovered, the Y 74's rescue man fell about one metre, receiving a heavy blow from the harness to the lower part of his body. Nonetheless, he requested that he be lowered to bring up one more body. This body, however, had become badly tangled with the ropes on the raft and could not be winched up.
At this stage the pilot decided to interrupt the recovery of the body, since there might still be survivors in the sea and on rafts. Finally a spare harness was lowered to the Y 64's rescue man and used to winch him up to the helicopter. The injury to the Y 74 rescue man proved so serious that he was unable to do more. The work was continued by Y 64's rescue man.
At 0715 hrs Y 74 found a raft with three survivors, who were winched up into the helicopter. At one point the rescue man had to be brought up because his flippers had been torn off by the waves.
At 0740 hrs Y 69 reported that it, too, had had to leave its rescue man in the water because of a malfunction of the winch. In addition, this rescue man was suffering from concussion, since he had hit his head on a lifeboat that was upside-down in the water.
Y 74 went to Y 69's assistance. A hook and harness were dropped to the rescue man, and he was able to use them to get up to the helicopter.
Three survivors were hanging on to the keel of an upside-down lifeboat. Y 64's rescue man was lowered, and all three survivors were winched up. In connection with the rescue of the last of the three, a strong wave threw the rescue man against the lifeboat, injuring him. Since Y 74 now had three injured rescue men, it had to interrupt its rescue operations. In addition, fuel was running low. The six survivors, the injured rescue men and the body were taken to Huddinge Hospital, where the helicopter arrived at 0930 hrs. Y 74 returned to Berga at 0940 hrs to change crew.

And how do you explain that the TT announcement from ten years later states that Svensson retrieved eight people, seven of whom survived?

You haven't been able to prove Svensson 'saved eight according to the JAIC'

Yes I have, and just did so again above.

you just made that up

No, I didn't. Take that back.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Each helicopter had designated winched rescuers.


Svensson was with Y64 and his pilot was Agne Asplund.

Y74 was Olle Moberg.


Moberg rescued six. He is rightly credited.

The pair did not rescue 14 between them after 0500 /0600 as the JAIC claim and clearly blinded you with its prolix word salad.

Do I need to paste the actual record again?

Svensson was left stranded in the sea when the winch on Y 64 failed. He was rescued by Y 74 who's own winchman was injured so Svensson took over his duties until he was himself injured.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

... he rescued one via Y64.

Plus several others via Y 74 after he got picked up by that helicopter.

 

[Reformed Offlian]

No he did not.

Yes, he did. And you're looking increasingly foolish and childish in the face of the clear contrary evidence.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

He may have been 'brought on board Y74' when his winch momentarily failed...

It was not his winch. It was Y64's winch.

The winch is part of the helicopter's equipment, not some cyborg appendage bolted onto the crewman. You do comprehend that, right?

When he was picked up by Y74 and their rescue man was too badly hurt to carry on, he took over as Y74's rescue man.

Why do you deny this?

 

[Vixen]

No. I am saying that you are lying about how many people the official record credits Svensson as having rescued. And I won't let you change the subject this time.

Are you going to admit that the official record credits Svensson with having retrieved eight people, and not just one?

You quoted a newspaper article which reflected ten years back to the disaster

https://web.archive.org/web/2018122...ngen.se/newsItemTT.aspx?id=20040926:TT:0043:0

and which says:

Survivors were a professional group that came into focus during the rescue work. Kenneth Svensson, then ensign at the helicopter division in Berga, is one of these heroes. He rescued eight people from the raging sea, seven of whom survived.
"I will never forget the visions I encountered when I went down to those in need," he said afterwards.
When the winch for the helicopter got into trouble, he at one point dived into the water without a lifeline to try to save another person in need. Kenneth Svensson was later awarded the Defense Medal of Merit in gold.

IOW it is quoting the Aftonbladet article of 28.9.1994 in which Svensson is hailed as a hero who left Berga just after 0200 and rescued the [disappeared?] eight.

Svensson was the winch rescue man for Helicopter Y64, a Boeing Kawasaki - which is always ready for immediate standby as per regulations (circa 15 minutes).

The JAIC does not mention Y64 until:

Y b4 (Boeing Kawasaki)

Y 64 took off from Berga at 0445 hrs, picked up a physician and a nurse from Huddinge Hospital and arrived at the scene of the accident at 0552 hrs.

JAIC 7.5.5

The JAIC doesn't mention the flight in which he saved eight. It officially has Y64 as saving just one person. The flight arriving 0445, is the FIRST MENTION, in which the JAIC concoct a huge potpourri of words describing how he was messing about in the water with rescue man from Y74, all created to disguise the fact Y64 is only credited officially with saving one. The JAIC is taking the mickey out of you.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

IOW it is quoting the Aftonbladet article of 28.9.1994 in which Svensson is hailed as a hero who left Berga just after 0200 and rescued the [disappeared?] eight.

No, of course it isn't. It's the very well known story of what he got his medal for doing.

 

[Vixen]

Y 64 was not a standby rescue helicopter. It was an Anti Submarine helicopter.
It takes longer than 15 minutes to ready a helicopter from the hanger. It takes longer than that just to fuel it.
Any aircrew would have to be assembled, they were not on standby and would not normally carry a rescue man as it was an anti submarine helicopter.

He rescued one survivor on Y 64 and a further 6 on Y 74

It is the standard protocol. When cargo ro-ro Finnbirch capsized on the Swedish East Coast, the 14-man crew was sitting on the upturned hull whilst the helicopters whirred overhead, as it was too dangerous to lower down.

The Swedish MRCC requested help from the Finnish Super Puma OHG's which had crews well-trained in bad weather rescue but in the interim its own M-IG's were there and when faced with criticism, were able to say they took off as soon as ordered by the Coast Guard.

Stockholm/Turku MRCC ordered helicopter rescue for Estonia which is logged at both ends at circa 0202. The Turku MRCC informs Silja at 0227 that the Swedish helicopter would be arriving 'in ten minutes'.

No doubt it was being a bit optimistic but it only takes 45 minutes from Berga. The Super Puma from Turku was there by 0300 and saved 35, so one can well believe Y64 and Y74 saved eight or nine between them, too, on their arrival by 0300, as stated in early day Swedish newspapers and even the TT article quoted by Reformed Offian.

The JAIC claim that the first helicopter rescue didn't arrive until 0350 is complete and utter rubbish and would be so irregular as to be remarked upon and investigated as to why so tardy.

Q 97 (Super Puma)

The Swedish stand-by helicopter Q 97 took off from Visby at 0250 hrs, arriving at the scene of the accident at 0350 hrs. The OSC requested the helicopter to pick up as many people as possible from the sea.

According to JAIC Y64 and Y74 didn't arrive until circa 0500/0600 FIVE HOURS after the mayday.


We know Y74 Svensson got the highest medal so we know for sure he did far more than turning up late and rescuing one.

 

[Reformed Offlian]

You quoted a newspaper article which reflected ten years back to the disaster

https://web.archive.org/web/2018122...ngen.se/newsItemTT.aspx?id=20040926:TT:0043:0

and which says:



IOW it is quoting the Aftonbladet article of 28.9.1994 in which Svensson is hailed as a hero who left Berga just after 0200 and rescued the [disappeared?] eight.

How do you know? The Aftonblad article does not mention that only seven of the eight survived (at least, none of the bits you got from Bjorkman do). So how did TT know that?

Svensson was the winch rescue man for Helicopter Y64, a Boeing Kawasaki - which is always ready for immediate standby as per regulations (circa 15 minutes).

The JAIC does not mention Y64 until:


JAIC 7.5.5

The JAIC doesn't mention the flight in which he saved eight.

That's because there was no such flight outside of your imagination. Even the Aftonblad article you fetishize so much only mentions one flight, not two. the only discrepancy is the time that one flight left. The Aftonblad article got it wrong. A completely unsurprising occurrence, for a tabloid rushing to get a hot story to print about a chaotic and rapidly-evolving event.

You haven't explained how the Aftonblad reporter knew about this alleged first secret flight, or why he failed to mention it if it wasn't secret yet at the time.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

The JAIC doesn't mention the flight in which he saved eight.

Yes it does. It explains that he did it by operating from two different helicopters.