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Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part IV

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You are the one lying. Citation, please, of where it says he 'retrieved eight people'.

Already did. And since you responded to the post with quote, I know that you have already seen it.

It's from the footnotes of the wiki article you yourself linked.

me said:
ETA

It gets better (or for Vixen, worse). Following the footnote next to Svensson's name from the Wikipedia article, you get this:

https://web.archive.org/web/20181224...0926:TT:0043:0

In which we find the following quote about Svensson:

"RESCUERS. The rescuers were a professional group that came into focus during the rescue. Kenneth Svensson, then ensign to the helicopter division in Berga, is one of these heroes. He got eight people out of the raging sea, seven of whom survived."

Will you look at that! Ten years on, and TT is correctly reporting the number of people Svensson rescued! From the footnotes in your own source!

Take your own advice and stop lying.

For that matter, take my advice and stop trying. You're just embarrassing yourself at this point.

I and Captain Swoop have also already quoted the JAIC report itself. Several times. In Captain Swoop's case, just now.
 
Why do you keep on telling this lie?

What was Moberg given to keep him quiet? Why would he go along with his rescues being attributed to someone else?

For that matter, what were the two helicopter crews, ground crews and hospital staff bribed with to keep them quiet all these years?

The Swedish government site clearly tells you which helicopter rescued whom. Y74 is credited with six and Y64, one.

https://sok.riksarkivet.se/estonia?infosida=helikopterinsatser


As well you know, hospitals have strict laws of confidentiality. Bribery is not needed.

You are in a corner (again) and can't get out.
 
Chapter 7
Section 7.5.5 Action by the SAR helicopters



https://onse.fi/estonia/chapt07_2.html

You can reproduce this all you want but it doesn't hide the fact Y64 rescued one and Y74, six. (According to the JAIC.)


Nowhere in your cut and pasted turgid text does it say Y64 saved six, seven or even eight. Instead we have a ridiculous account about how his flippers were torn off.
 
The Swedish government site clearly tells you which helicopter rescued whom. Y74 is credited with six and Y64, one.

https://sok.riksarkivet.se/estonia?infosida=helikopterinsatser


As well you know, hospitals have strict laws of confidentiality. Bribery is not needed.

Yes. Y 74 and Y 64 are helicopters. The numbers above are the correct ones for how many Estonia survivors were brought back *on each helicopter*. It does not tell you which rescue men rescued which people.

The JAIC report does. Svensson rescued all of them. Because Moberg got injured right after rescuing *him*

And no, that does not detract from Moberg's bravery in any way. If anything, it highlights just how dangerous the task was that men like he and Svensson took on.
 
Already did. And since you responded to the post with quote, I know that you have already seen it.

It's from the footnotes of the wiki article you yourself linked.



I and Captain Swoop have also already quoted the JAIC report itself. Several times. In Captain Swoop's case, just now.

He certainly did at the earlier time of 0300 - hence the gold medal - but definitely not at the 0600 occasion, as detailed by the JAIC.
 
You can reproduce this all you want but it doesn't hide the fact Y64 rescued one and Y74, six. (According to the JAIC.)

Nobody disputes that fact. What we dispute is your inference that this means Kenneth Svensson only rescued one person.


Nowhere in your cut and pasted turgid text does it say Y64 saved six, seven or even eight. Instead we have a ridiculous account about how his flippers were torn off.

It's strange that you would stress this point, since *you* are the one contending that Y64 actually retrieved additional people. That's an aspect of *your* fanfic, not the official story.
 
The Swedish government site clearly tells you which helicopter rescued whom. Y74 is credited with six and Y64, one.

https://sok.riksarkivet.se/estonia?infosida=helikopterinsatser


As well you know, hospitals have strict laws of confidentiality. Bribery is not needed.

You are in a corner (again) and can't get out.

So not one word from any of the two flight crews or the rescue man that had his rescues stolen?
Not one word from the ground crews or airbase staff involved in preparing the earlier flight?
Not one written record in any of the log books that a helicopter took off hours earlier than reported?

Hospital staff leak information all the time, why should this incident be any different?

Not one peep over all the decades since the incident?

You seem to be claiming that the complete lack of evidence for any of this is the evidence for it.

As for the rescues, once again, helicopters are not people, we know how many were rescued by each helicopter and we know who the rescue men were.

Y 64 began to rescue three people, one in a raft, one lying in the water tied to the raft and one lifeless entangled in the raft's sea anchor. The helicopter winched down its rescue man to the person in the water. Although the winch wire failed, the rescue man managed to raise him. The next to be lifted up was the man in the raft. He was not wearing a lifejacket. He fell into the water just before gaining the helicopter. The rescue man jumped after him and succeeded in grasping him. The winch now failed totally and another helicopter, Y 74, was called upon to rescue them. However, before Y 74 arrived, the person died.
Y 64 brought the survivor to Utö. The medical personnel on board were left to assist the Finnish nursing staff. As requested by the staff, Y 64 transported 20 survivors from Utö to Turku University Central Hospital. After this Y 64 got permission from the OSC to return to Berga to repair the broken winch, and landed there at 1530 hrs.

Y 74 had difficulties in locating Y 64 since the OSC lacked exact information on the position of each helicopter. The Y 64 rescue man was holding onto a body, which was winched up to Y 74 with the assistance of Y 74's own rescue man. When the body had been recovered, the Y 74's rescue man fell about one metre, receiving a heavy blow from the harness to the lower part of his body. Nonetheless, he requested that he be lowered to bring up one more body. This body, however, had become badly tangled with the ropes on the raft and could not be winched up.
At this stage the pilot decided to interrupt the recovery of the body, since there might still be survivors in the sea and on rafts. Finally a spare harness was lowered to the Y 64's rescue man and used to winch him up to the helicopter. The injury to the Y 74 rescue man proved so serious that he was unable to do more. The work was continued by Y 64's rescue man.
At 0715 hrs Y 74 found a raft with three survivors, who were winched up into the helicopter. At one point the rescue man had to be brought up because his flippers had been torn off by the waves.
At 0740 hrs Y 69 reported that it, too, had had to leave its rescue man in the water because of a malfunction of the winch. In addition, this rescue man was suffering from concussion, since he had hit his head on a lifeboat that was upside-down in the water.
Y 74 went to Y 69's assistance. A hook and harness were dropped to the rescue man, and he was able to use them to get up to the helicopter.
Three survivors were hanging on to the keel of an upside-down lifeboat. Y 64's rescue man was lowered, and all three survivors were winched up. In connection with the rescue of the last of the three, a strong wave threw the rescue man against the lifeboat, injuring him. Since Y 74 now had three injured rescue men, it had to interrupt its rescue operations. In addition, fuel was running low. The six survivors, the injured rescue men and the body were taken to Huddinge Hospital, where the helicopter arrived at 0930 hrs. Y 74 returned to Berga at 0940 hrs to change crew.
 
He certainly did at the earlier time of 0300 - hence the gold medal - but definitely not at the 0600 occasion, as detailed by the JAIC.

Now it's your turn. Citation please.

ETA: As Tony Pro says in "The Irishman": Before we get to that, let's straighten that other thing out.

Do you now admit that the official record credits Svensson with having retrieved eight people? That both the JAIC and the TT announcement say this, and not that he only rescued one? That, in fact, there is not *one* source saying specifically that Svensson (the man himself, not the helicopter he flew out on), rescued only one person?
 
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You can reproduce this all you want but it doesn't hide the fact Y64 rescued one and Y74, six. (According to the JAIC.)


Nowhere in your cut and pasted turgid text does it say Y64 saved six, seven or even eight. Instead we have a ridiculous account about how his flippers were torn off.

helicopters are not people, One rescue man worked on both helicopters.
 
He certainly did at the earlier time of 0300 - hence the gold medal - but definitely not at the 0600 occasion, as detailed by the JAIC.

Why do you keep repeating this lie?

You have no evidence for an earlier flight by Y 64.

Why do you keep claiming it when it would make more sense for you to claim an unrecorded helicopter made the claimed earlier flight?
 
Yes. Y 74 and Y 64 are helicopters. The numbers above are the correct ones for how many Estonia survivors were brought back *on each helicopter*. It does not tell you which rescue men rescued which people.

The JAIC report does. Svensson rescued all of them. Because Moberg got injured right after rescuing *him*

And no, that does not detract from Moberg's bravery in any way. If anything, it highlights just how dangerous the task was that men like he and Svensson took on.

Rubbish! Absolute rubbish!

Each rescue man had a helicopter winch. Each winch was attached to a particular helicopter. Y64, Svensson was attached to Y64 and no other helicopter.

Unlike the Finns, who had trained in bad weather rescue, at no time did the Swedes just jump in the water and swim to the rafts. At all times, Svensson was Y64, no matter how badly JAIC tries to create an impression the reader should confuse him with Y74.

Ask yourself why the JAIC doesn't speak in plain English.

A seeming chaotic situation is a well-known form of fraud. If an auditor sees 'chaos' it usually arouses suspicion of fraud rather than the desired, carefully calculated effect of 'Oh silly me, I am so untidy, I just could not keep track of my records and my documents are all over the place as I am hopeless at filing'. <sfx exaggerated Brummie accent> "Yes, Mate!"
 
You just said he only rescued one. Make your mind up.

According to the official JAIC records.

You can look it up here on the Swedish Government archives:

https://sok.riksarkivet.se/estonia?infosida=helikopterinsatser

Helicopter Y74 = 6 (rescued)

Helicopter Y64 = 1 (rescued)

Ask yourself how come Y64, Svensson, gets the Gold Medal with Sword?


You do know it was Svensson himself who told Aftonbladet 28 Sept 1994 he had set off just after 0200 (and it only takes 15 minutes to fly off after standby) and saved eight souls.

What JAIC is describing is his return journey at circa 0500.

In other words, it seeks to conceal the fact eight Estonian survivors, including top brass senior officers of Estonia were disappeared, after having been listed as 'survivors'.


Those eight were the eight humans Svensson plucked from the sea at circa 0300.

On dropping them off at Huddinge Hospital in Stockholm, he pikced up the nurse and doctor and returned to the scene, arriving 0552 this time, and this is when the JAIC first mention Y64.
 
IIRC you were demanding to know why Dr. Eng. Hoffmeister wasn't testing for bombs.


Yeah....no, that's not what he was saying at all. Maybe stop misrepresenting people and creating strawmen. What he was actually saying was that it would have been functionally impossible for any relevant professional, had those parts truly been subjected to explosive detonation, to have a) missed the obvious, tell-tale evidence of explosive detonation that would have been visibly present, and b) failed entirely to mention it in his report.

More intellectual dishonesty from you.


(Oh, and perhaps you ought to know that writing "Dr Eng Hoffmeister" is embarrassingly nonsensical, especially for someone who claims to have tertiary education. If Hoffmeister has a doctorate of engineering, he is simply Dr Hoffmeister. "Dr" is his honorific; "Dr Eng" is his qualification. What you keep writing is a stupid as, say, referring to someone named Walker who has a bachelor of science degree as "BSc Walker"...)
 
See for yourself. It is official on Wikipedia: Kenneth Svensson was the ONE helicopter rescue man who received The Swedish Armed Forces Medal of Merit (1995–2009) Gold Medal for the (supposedly) one person he rescued.

Wiki

This is the FULL list for the ENTIRE Swedish Armed Forces over a total of 14 years, 1995 to 2009.

Clearly he did a lot more than the JAIC let on.

Think about it.


Yeah: think about it, people!

I mean, it's obvious, right?! What more proof could anyone need? Right?!
 
Yeah....no, that's not what he was saying at all. Maybe stop misrepresenting people and creating strawmen. What he was actually saying was that it would have been functionally impossible for any relevant professional, had those parts truly been subjected to explosive detonation, to have a) missed the obvious, tell-tale evidence of explosive detonation that would have been visibly present, and b) failed entirely to mention it in his report.

More intellectual dishonesty from you.


(Oh, and perhaps you ought to know that writing "Dr Eng Hoffmeister" is embarrassingly nonsensical, especially for someone who claims to have tertiary education. If Hoffmeister has a doctorate of engineering, he is simply Dr Hoffmeister. "Dr" is his honorific; "Dr Eng" is his qualification. What you keep writing is a stupid as, say, referring to someone named Walker who has a bachelor of science degree as "BSc Walker"...)

That is his correct title, and correct usage as I am directly referring to his academic paper investigating the Estonia locks, and therefore it is relevant.

Check for yourself: https://www.tu-braunschweig.de/iwf/fup/team/hans-werner-hoffmeister
 
Rubbish! Absolute rubbish!

Even if it were absolute rubbish, it is an accurate description of what the official account says, unlike yours.

Remember, the subject in dispute here is how you have characterized what the JAIC report and other official sources say.

You are claiming that it only credits Svensson with having only rescued the one person brought back on Y 64. It does not. The JAIC report very clearly states that he rescued the six people brought back on Y 74 as well.

Your dismissal of this as "absolute rubbish" does not change the fact that that is what the report says, nor does it entitle you to misrepresent it.

"Y 64" in the JAIC report is not a reference to Svensson. "The Y 64 rescue man" is. Show me where the JAIC report says that "the Y 64 rescue man" rescued one and only one person in total.

Each rescue man had a helicopter winch. Each winch was attached to a particular helicopter. Y64, Svensson was attached to Y64 and no other helicopter.

That is not what the JAIC report says, is it? It says that after the winch on Y 64 malfunctioned, Svensson cut loose and was subsequently brought on board Y 74. The rescue man from Y 69 was *also* brought on board Y 74, after having cut loose from his original helicopter.

These things happen in emergencies. People become separated from the teams they set out with, and end up with other teams. Sometimes, as in Svensson's case, they are in a condition to continue work with the new team, and sometimes they are not.

Again, it doesn't matter for the issue at hand whether you buy the JAIC account, the point is that is what the JAIC account *reports*.

Unlike the Finns, who had trained in bad weather rescue, at no time did the Swedes just jump in the water and swim to the rafts. At all times, Svensson was Y64, no matter how badly JAIC tries to create an impression the reader should confuse him with Y74.

That is not what the JAIC report says happened. Remember, you are making claims not just about what you think actually happened, but what the JAIC report *says* happened. And those claims (both of them, actually) are false.

Ask yourself why the JAIC doesn't speak in plain English.

I assume you mean "plain language". It does. You seem to be the only person in this discussion who doesn't understand what it says.

A seeming chaotic situation is a well-known form of fraud.

"Seeming?" Are you suggesting the situation surrounding the Estonia disaster *wasn't* chaotic?
 
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