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Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part IV

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Vixen said:
You can reproduce this all you want but it doesn't hide the fact Y64 rescued one and Y74, six. (According to the JAIC.)


Nowhere in your cut and pasted turgid text does it say Y64 saved six, seven or even eight. Instead we have a ridiculous account about how his flippers were torn off.
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Seriously?! You still ignorantly believe that Y64 and Y74 refer to individual people?!!!

Y64 and Y74 refer to helicopters, Vixen. You've now been explicitly told this (with proof) several times.

This is so very embarrassing.
 
Vixen said:
According to the official JAIC records.

You can look it up here on the Swedish Government archives:

https://sok.riksarkivet.se/estonia?infosida=helikopterinsatser

Helicopter Y74 = 6 (rescued)

Helicopter Y64 = 1 (rescued)

Ask yourself how come Y64, Svensson, gets the Gold Medal with Sword?


You do know it was Svensson himself who told Aftonbladet 28 Sept 1994 he had set off just after 0200 (and it only takes 15 minutes to fly off after standby) and saved eight souls.

What JAIC is describing is his return journey at circa 0500.

In other words, it seeks to conceal the fact eight Estonian survivors, including top brass senior officers of Estonia were disappeared, after having been listed as 'survivors'.


Those eight were the eight humans Svensson plucked from the sea at circa 0300.

On dropping them off at Huddinge Hospital in Stockholm, he pikced up the nurse and doctor and returned to the scene, arriving 0552 this time, and this is when the JAIC first mention Y64.
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References to Y 64 are not references to Svensson. Svensson worked from more than one helicopter. It's right there in "plain English" in the JAIC report. There, Svensson is referred to as "the Y 64 rescue man".

Not "Y 64". That's the helicopter, not the person. The report, unlike you, keeps its referents straight in this.
 
Vixen said:
Rubbish! Absolute rubbish!

Each rescue man had a helicopter winch. Each winch was attached to a particular helicopter. Y64, Svensson was attached to Y64 and no other helicopter.

Unlike the Finns, who had trained in bad weather rescue, at no time did the Swedes just jump in the water and swim to the rafts. At all times, Svensson was Y64, no matter how badly JAIC tries to create an impression the reader should confuse him with Y74.

Ask yourself why the JAIC doesn't speak in plain English.

A seeming chaotic situation is a well-known form of fraud. If an auditor sees 'chaos' it usually arouses suspicion of fraud rather than the desired, carefully calculated effect of 'Oh silly me, I am so untidy, I just could not keep track of my records and my documents are all over the place as I am hopeless at filing'. <sfx exaggerated Brummie accent> "Yes, Mate!"
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Hopelessly embarrassing. Phrases such as "...Svensson was Y64" are stupidly ignorant. Y64 refers to the machine (ie the helicopter). Nothing but the machine.

One can write "...Svensson was aboard Y64" or "...Svensson was the rescue man on Y64". But what you're writing - and what you're claiming - is so very wrong as to be laughable (especially when you've been set right on this specific issue so many times already by now).
 
One more thing, Vixen. You say that the additional people Svensson is credited with having rescued is from an earlier mission, and that those rescuees were somehow later expunged from the official record and not included in the final count of survivors by the time the JAIC published its report.

If that is true, how is it that the TT notice from ten years later knows about them? The person who wrote it knows that Svensson retrieved eight people and not just one. How?
 
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Vixen said:
According to the official JAIC records.

You can look it up here on the Swedish Government archives:

https://sok.riksarkivet.se/estonia?infosida=helikopterinsatser

Helicopter Y74 = 6 (rescued)

Helicopter Y64 = 1 (rescued)

Ask yourself how come Y64, Svensson, gets the Gold Medal with Sword?


You do know it was Svensson himself who told Aftonbladet 28 Sept 1994 he had set off just after 0200 (and it only takes 15 minutes to fly off after standby) and saved eight souls.

What JAIC is describing is his return journey at circa 0500.

In other words, it seeks to conceal the fact eight Estonian survivors, including top brass senior officers of Estonia were disappeared, after having been listed as 'survivors'.


Those eight were the eight humans Svensson plucked from the sea at circa 0300.

On dropping them off at Huddinge Hospital in Stockholm, he pikced up the nurse and doctor and returned to the scene, arriving 0552 this time, and this is when the JAIC first mention Y64.
Click to expand...


Bloody hell.
Once more with incredulity:

Svensson was not Y64.

Y64 was a specific helicopter. Not a person.

Svensson was the rescue man on Y64. For a while.

But then Svensson switched helicopters. To Y74.


How the hell is this (apparently) still beyond the limits of your intellect/understanding?
 
Vixen said:
That is his correct title, and correct usage as I am directly referring to his academic paper investigating the Estonia locks, and therefore it is relevant.

Check for yourself: https://www.tu-braunschweig.de/iwf/fup/team/hans-werner-hoffmeister
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Nope.

You were writing in English.

In German, the honorific does indeed differentiate (in order to specify that a person is, say, a doctor of engineering rather than a medical doctor - something that can indeed often be a source of misunderstanding in the English language).

But when writing in English, as you were doing, he is Dr Hoffmeister. And he has a doctorate in engineering. If he were being introduced at (say) a conference in New York, he'd be introduced as Dr Hoffmeister.

I'm obviously unsurprised that this is all beyond your comprehension.
 
Vixen said:
Rubbish! Absolute rubbish!



Each rescue man had a helicopter winch. Each winch was attached to a particular helicopter. Y64, Svensson was attached to Y64 and no other helicopter.
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Oh good grief. What? Do you have a grasp of what a helicopter winch is, Vixen? Do you imagine it to be surgically attached to the man like some bizarre body modification?

How on earth do you form the idea that a crewman from one helicopter cannot use the winch on another helicopter when he has been brought aboard it?

What is the missing piece in your imagining of the scenario which means you cannot comprehend this?
 
Vixen said:
Rubbish! Absolute rubbish!

Each rescue man had a helicopter winch. Each winch was attached to a particular helicopter. Y64, Svensson was attached to Y64 and no other helicopter.

Unlike the Finns, who had trained in bad weather rescue, at no time did the Swedes just jump in the water and swim to the rafts. At all times, Svensson was Y64, no matter how badly JAIC tries to create an impression the reader should confuse him with Y74.

Ask yourself why the JAIC doesn't speak in plain English.

A seeming chaotic situation is a well-known form of fraud. If an auditor sees 'chaos' it usually arouses suspicion of fraud rather than the desired, carefully calculated effect of 'Oh silly me, I am so untidy, I just could not keep track of my records and my documents are all over the place as I am hopeless at filing'. <sfx exaggerated Brummie accent> "Yes, Mate!"
Click to expand...

Y 64 winch broke stranding the rescue man in the water, he was rescued by Y 74. There is no confusion.
 
Vixen said:
According to the official JAIC records.

You can look it up here on the Swedish Government archives:

https://sok.riksarkivet.se/estonia?infosida=helikopterinsatser

Helicopter Y74 = 6 (rescued)

Helicopter Y64 = 1 (rescued)

Ask yourself how come Y64, Svensson, gets the Gold Medal with Sword?


You do know it was Svensson himself who told Aftonbladet 28 Sept 1994 he had set off just after 0200 (and it only takes 15 minutes to fly off after standby) and saved eight souls.

What JAIC is describing is his return journey at circa 0500.

In other words, it seeks to conceal the fact eight Estonian survivors, including top brass senior officers of Estonia were disappeared, after having been listed as 'survivors'.


Those eight were the eight humans Svensson plucked from the sea at circa 0300.

On dropping them off at Huddinge Hospital in Stockholm, he pikced up the nurse and doctor and returned to the scene, arriving 0552 this time, and this is when the JAIC first mention Y64.
Click to expand...

Y 64 was not a standby rescue helicopter. It was an Anti Submarine helicopter.
It takes longer than 15 minutes to ready a helicopter from the hanger. It takes longer than that just to fuel it.
Any aircrew would have to be assembled, they were not on standby and would not normally carry a rescue man as it was an anti submarine helicopter.

He rescued one survivor on Y 64 and a further 6 on Y 74
 
Vixen said:
You do know it was Svensson himself who told Aftonbladet 28 Sept 1994 he had set off just after 0200
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No, I don't know that. How do *you* know that? The article -or rather, the extract of the article you copied and pasted from Bjorkman- does not say that.
 
Vixen, I long to know why you think Svensson could not have used the winch on Y 74 after he was picked up by Y 74.

It's bound to be hilarious so don't keep us in suspense (pun noted).
 
We are missing the obvious here. Y 64 and the other 'Y' designated helicopters were all anti submarine helicopters!!

They weren't there to rescue people at all.
 
Captain_Swoop said:
We are missing the obvious here. Y 64 and the other 'Y' designated helicopters were all anti submarine helicopters!!

They weren't there to rescue people at all.
Click to expand...


Wait.... they were sent to the scene to seek and destroy the submarine - the Swedish submarine, no less - that was responsible for holing the Estonia below the waterline?

To quote Raj from TBBT: "The plot - like my gravy - thickens"
 
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