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Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part IV

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Perhaps you can explain to us all why Koivisto's official report on the Estonia EPIRB's is missing, together with the EPIRB's themselves, according to reputable YLE journalists who wanted to research them?


Svenska YLE

Where should the buoys be? They were not an important part of the sinking. When they were found they were in working order with full batteries and when tested worked ok.
They weren't an important part of the distress response and the direct distress transmission from the ship was picked up and responded to.

Why should they be kept? Who should have kept them?
 
Why do you lie?

He rescued 7 people, was left stranded in the water for a while and then took over the job of another injured rescue man before being injured himself.

Seems to me that deserves a medal.

As for other recipients, what point are you making?

There were over 100 helicopters in all over the scene. Why has Ensign Kenneth Svensson been singled out for a gold medal with sword by the Swedish Armed Forces?

Equivalent to brave pilots shot down in DC-3's in 1952.


Nobody else seems to have even got a silver.
 
Where should the buoys be? They were not an important part of the sinking. When they were found they were in working order with full batteries and when tested worked ok.
They weren't an important part of the distress response and the direct distress transmission from the ship was picked up and responded to.

Why should they be kept? Who should have kept them?

Why isn't Koivisto's Official Report to the JAIC Jan 1995, in the JAIC archives?
 
Would you be happy with an unsalvaged unrecovered shipwreck containing literally many hundreds of bodies, including little children not far from your own shores, in a beauty spot area and nature reserve for wild birds? Every time you went to the beach you would be intrigued and wanting answers to the question, why? Especially when the official report into the cause of the wreck, the JAIC report, has massive holes in it.

Britain wanted answers over the Herald of Free Enterprise and it got it, even if the judges and courts were too weak-spirited to find anyone to blame.

This doesn't answer the question put, as usual.

You're being asked why you keep repeating claims that have been thoroughly disproved time and time again. The EPIRBS is just one recent example.
 
Perhaps you can explain to us all why Koivisto's official report on the Estonia EPIRB's is missing

Nope. And I can't tell you where your TV remote is either. But I can tell, when you claim your preferred source is the expert's report and that report is not available, that you are bull ********.
 
There were over 100 helicopters in all over the scene. Why has Ensign Kenneth Svensson been singled out for a gold medal with sword by the Swedish Armed Forces?

Equivalent to brave pilots shot down in DC-3's in 1952.


Nobody else seems to have even got a silver.

Those shot down in the DC3 never actually did anything other than get shot down though.

Svennson was singled out because he went down on a winch already known to have developed a fault to try and rescue someone. When the winch failed he was left stranded in the water and still held on to the person he went down for. When he was rescued he took over the job of another injured rescue man and continued to rescue people until he was injured himself.

Seems pretty brave and noteworthy to me.
 
Why isn't Koivisto's Official Report to the JAIC Jan 1995, in the JAIC archives?

It is, when inspected the buoys were found to be in working condition , they had full batteries and when tested they worked as they should..

What else are you expecting the report to say?

They are a side note in the Estonia report, they had no influence on the sinking or rescue.

Their main importance was in causing the IMO to change SOLAS requirements and mandate automatic buoys for all ships over 300 tons.
 
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See for yourself. It is official on Wikipedia: Kenneth Svensson was the ONE helicopter rescue man who received The Swedish Armed Forces Medal of Merit (1995–2009) Gold Medal for the (supposedly) one person he rescued.

Wiki

This is the FULL list for the ENTIRE Swedish Armed Forces over a total of 14 years, 1995 to 2009.

Clearly he did a lot more than the JAIC let on.

Think about it.

The wiki says nothing about how many people Svensson rescued.

The JAIC report, however, does.

And it doesn't say he only rescued one. Take your own advice and stop lying.

ETA

It gets better (or for Vixen, worse). Following the footnote next to Svensson's name from the Wikipedia article, you get this:

https://web.archive.org/web/2018122...ngen.se/newsItemTT.aspx?id=20040926:TT:0043:0

In which we find the following quote about Svensson:

"RESCUERS. The rescuers were a professional group that came into focus during the rescue. Kenneth Svensson, then ensign to the helicopter division in Berga, is one of these heroes. He got eight people out of the raging sea, seven of whom survived."

Will you look at that! Ten years on, and TT is correctly reporting the number of people Svensson rescued! From the footnotes in your own source!

Take your own advice and stop lying.

For that matter, take my advice and stop trying. You're just embarrassing yourself at this point.
 
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Those shot down in the DC3 never actually did anything other than get shot down though.

Svennson was singled out because he went down on a winch already known to have developed a fault to try and rescue someone. When the winch failed he was left stranded in the water and still held on to the person he went down for. When he was rescued he took over the job of another injured rescue man and continued to rescue people until he was injured himself.

Seems pretty brave and noteworthy to me.

Nobody said it was not 'noteworthy'.


Nice try at pretending to miss the point.
 
The wiki says nothing about how many people Svensson rescued.

The JAIC report, however, does.

And it doesn't say he only rescued one. Take your own advice and stop lying.

ETA

It gets better (or for Vixen, worse). Following the footnote next to Svensson's name from the Wikipedia article, you get this:

https://web.archive.org/web/2018122...ngen.se/newsItemTT.aspx?id=20040926:TT:0043:0

In which we find the following quote about Svensson:

"RESCUERS. The rescuers were a professional group that came into focus during the rescue. Kenneth Svensson, then ensign to the helicopter division in Berga, is one of these heroes. He got eight people out of the raging sea, seven of whom survived."

Will you look at that! Ten years on, and TT is correctly reporting the number of people Svensson rescued! From the footnotes in your own source!

Take your own advice and stop lying.

For that matter, take my advice and stop trying. You're just embarrassing yourself at this point.

So tell me, are you claiming Y74, Olli Moberg cannot take credit for the six survivors Y74 is credited with by the Swedish government?


Was he not jolly brave, as well?
 
Nobody said it was not 'noteworthy'.


Nice try at pretending to miss the point.

I don't see what your point is supposed to be.
He was very brave and risked his life to save others, he was stranded in the water and continued on until he was injured.

I would have given him a medal.
 
So tell me, are you claiming Y74, Olli Moberg cannot take credit for the six survivors Y74 is credited with by the Swedish government?


Was he not jolly brave, as well?

He didn't rescue them, he was injured.
Yes he was brave too.
 
So tell me, are you claiming Y74, Olli Moberg cannot take credit for the six survivors Y74 is credited with by the Swedish government?

No. I am saying that you are lying about how many people the official record credits Svensson as having rescued. And I won't let you change the subject this time.

Are you going to admit that the official record credits Svensson with having retrieved eight people, and not just one?
 
He didn't rescue them, he was injured.
Yes he was brave too.

He didn't get the Gold Medal with Sword, did he? Despite all of his amazing bravery, including rescuing Y64, Svensson himself.

Truth is, Svensson was given the gold medal for having earlier brought the top brass officers to Huddinge on his earlier flight, and as compensation for having this rescue 'classified', with only one later survivor credited to his helicopter.
 
No. I am saying that you are lying about how many people the official record credits Svensson as having rescued. And I won't let you change the subject this time.

Are you going to admit that the official record credits Svensson with having retrieved eight people, and not just one?

You are the one lying. Citation, please, of where it says he 'retrieved eight people'.
 
He didn't get the Gold Medal with Sword, did he? Despite all of his amazing bravery, including rescuing Y64, Svensson himself.

Truth is, Svensson was given the gold medal for having earlier brought the top brass officers to Huddinge on his earlier flight, and as compensation for having this rescue 'classified', with only one later survivor credited to his helicopter.

Why do you keep on telling this lie?

What was Moberg given to keep him quiet? Why would he go along with his rescues being attributed to someone else?

For that matter, what were the two helicopter crews, ground crews and hospital staff bribed with to keep them quiet all these years?
 
Vixen,

You keep returning to issues, claims and accusations that have already been thoroughly debunked, disproven and (where appropriate) ridiculed. Why? What do you hope to gain by this? Do you have anything new or interesting to contribute here?

Would you be happy with an unsalvaged unrecovered shipwreck containing literally many hundreds of bodies, including little children not far from your own shores, in a beauty spot area and nature reserve for wild birds? Every time you went to the beach you would be intrigued and wanting answers to the question, why? Especially when the official report into the cause of the wreck, the JAIC report, has massive holes in it.

Britain wanted answers over the Herald of Free Enterprise and it got it, even if the judges and courts were too weak-spirited to find anyone to blame.

This doesn't answer the question put, as usual.

You're being asked why you keep repeating claims that have been thoroughly disproved time and time again. The EPIRBS is just one recent example.


Vixen,

As GlennB notes, you haven't answered the question that I asked. I would appreciate an answer to my question, though (given precedent) I don't hold out much hope.

ETA:
As regards the question you posed in your non-answer;

Would you be happy with an unsalvaged unrecovered shipwreck containing literally many hundreds of bodies, including little children not far from your own shores, in a beauty spot area and nature reserve for wild birds? Yes. If, as is the case here, recovery of the bodies were impractical or impossible, then leaving them in situ and declaring the wreck a grave site would be (in my opinion) the appropriate thing to do. I don't see that the beauty of the site, or its' being a nature reserve are relevant (I was unaware that either were true of the Estonia)'s resting place).
 
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You are the one lying. Citation, please, of where it says he 'retrieved eight people'.

Chapter 7
Section 7.5.5 Action by the SAR helicopters

Y 64 began to rescue three people, one in a raft, one lying in the water tied to the raft and one lifeless entangled in the raft's sea anchor. The helicopter winched down its rescue man to the person in the water. Although the winch wire failed, the rescue man managed to raise him. The next to be lifted up was the man in the raft. He was not wearing a lifejacket. He fell into the water just before gaining the helicopter. The rescue man jumped after him and succeeded in grasping him. The winch now failed totally and another helicopter, Y 74, was called upon to rescue them. However, before Y 74 arrived, the person died.
Y 64 brought the survivor to Utö. The medical personnel on board were left to assist the Finnish nursing staff. As requested by the staff, Y 64 transported 20 survivors from Utö to Turku University Central Hospital. After this Y 64 got permission from the OSC to return to Berga to repair the broken winch, and landed there at 1530 hrs.

Y 74 had difficulties in locating Y 64 since the OSC lacked exact information on the position of each helicopter. The Y 64 rescue man was holding onto a body, which was winched up to Y 74 with the assistance of Y 74's own rescue man. When the body had been recovered, the Y 74's rescue man fell about one metre, receiving a heavy blow from the harness to the lower part of his body. Nonetheless, he requested that he be lowered to bring up one more body. This body, however, had become badly tangled with the ropes on the raft and could not be winched up.
At this stage the pilot decided to interrupt the recovery of the body, since there might still be survivors in the sea and on rafts. Finally a spare harness was lowered to the Y 64's rescue man and used to winch him up to the helicopter. The injury to the Y 74 rescue man proved so serious that he was unable to do more. The work was continued by Y 64's rescue man.
At 0715 hrs Y 74 found a raft with three survivors, who were winched up into the helicopter. At one point the rescue man had to be brought up because his flippers had been torn off by the waves.
At 0740 hrs Y 69 reported that it, too, had had to leave its rescue man in the water because of a malfunction of the winch. In addition, this rescue man was suffering from concussion, since he had hit his head on a lifeboat that was upside-down in the water.
Y 74 went to Y 69's assistance. A hook and harness were dropped to the rescue man, and he was able to use them to get up to the helicopter.
Three survivors were hanging on to the keel of an upside-down lifeboat. Y 64's rescue man was lowered, and all three survivors were winched up. In connection with the rescue of the last of the three, a strong wave threw the rescue man against the lifeboat, injuring him. Since Y 74 now had three injured rescue men, it had to interrupt its rescue operations. In addition, fuel was running low. The six survivors, the injured rescue men and the body were taken to Huddinge Hospital, where the helicopter arrived at 0930 hrs. Y 74 returned to Berga at 0940 hrs to change crew.

https://onse.fi/estonia/chapt07_2.html
 
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