Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part IV

[Vixen]

Helicopters are not people. Y 64 rescued 1 person. Y 74 rescued 6

The rescue man recovered one survivor to Y 64 then was left in the water. He was rescued by Y 74 and replaced the rescue man of that helicopter who was injured and rescued a further 6 people before being injured himself.

This has been stated several times just today!

Throw away the dogma and think for yourself.

 

[LondonJohn]

I believe Svensson did heroically save eight people circa 0300 am, as the newspapers said.

LOL @ "circa". What's wrong with the non-Latin term "about" or "around"? Do you think "circa" sounds somehow more impressive and erudite?

And "0300am" is a tautology. Either it's "0300", or it's "3.00am". In addition, if you insist on adopting the military time system (again, do you think it sounds more impressive that way?), you'd only ever say "0300" or "0300 hours".

 

[Andy_Ross]

So, IOW, it was pure chance - but high probability nonetheless, being in a proper life boat - that the senior officers would be amongst the first Y64/Y74 came across and rescued, as they would any other human being.


Once despatched to Huddinge and they identified themselves, of course, the Police Chief is going to jump out of bed and say, 'Whoa! Don't let those guys leave!'.

And yet we have no record of the flight that supposedly did this?
We know when Y 64 and Y 74 were alerted, we know they were then fueled and made ready and crews came on duty to fly them. We know the times they took off from their bases and arrived at the rescue area.
We know how many they rescued and when they returned to their bases.

Why do you claim they were involved in the secret flight when it would be easier to suppose that some other, unrecorded helicopter made the secret flights?

 

[LondonJohn]

Throw away the dogma and think for yourself.

Thank goodness my weapons-grade Irony-o-Meter is currently being stripped down and rebuilt. This zinger would have blown it to smithereens.

 

[Vixen]

Why on behalf of the CIA? Sweden is a major manufacturer of top-quality weapons sold worldwide. Maybe they wanted to broaden their line to include smoky diesel engines, tanks with lousy brakes, 1960s-quality 90s Russian radar.



...Except they were the ones selling them...




...Because smugglers observe all the laws...



Cool, so you can cite witness reports of such a meeting, complete with time, date, location, and participating attendees.



Liar.

You have yet to cite a case dating from 1994 or years prior wherein Sweden disappeared anyone either on their own initiative, or at the behest of a foreign government.

More embarrassing still is the fact that you have yet to lay out a motive for silencing these crew members.




I doubt they cared.



They were isolated to keep from being pestered by the press.

And the phone thing? ALL hospitals use some kind of PBX phone system, it's standard, not suspicious unless you're mental.



And?



Do you know how a calendar works?

Clinton's Middle East peace agreement didn't happen until the year 2000.

I'll do the math for you since you're bad at that too...1994 is 6 years prior to the year 2000. Clinton, the US, the CIA, had nothing to do with the sinking of the Estonia, nor did it have any input into the investigation, and actions of the Swedish, Estonian, and Finish governments surrounding this event.



Yes, and he and Spiderman were never seen in the same room. Coincidence?



Citation needed.



I have footage of the CIA-MI6 meeting:

[qimg]https://media.giphy.com/media/4LSy2e2nHnqFi/giphy-downsized-large.gif[/qimg]

You only need to note how Sillaste was brutally handcuffed as he was brought in to Turku to be interrogated by an intimidating array of special police together with three PM's.

All credit to Sillaste he stuck to his story of the car ramp being up and pointing out it was normal to leak.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

If this topic was about France you would be swearing blind that the capital is not Paris, as a matter of course.

Retreading old ground. We literally did exactly this same nonsense exchange about 1990s EPIRBs in Part III, remember?

You said some crap about "if you said Paris was not the capital of France and couldn't document it.." and I replied that what you were actually asserting was more like Copenhagen was the capital of Denmark in a discussion about the Viking era when that wasn't true.

Then I invited you to show us when the Kannad 406 F had its type approval withdrawn until it was discovered why these ones had not activated and you invited me to use the search function and flounced off the topic for a while.

Did I save us some time repeating ourselves?

 

[Andy_Ross]

How likely is it that the engineers were up and outta there before you could say, "Jack Robinson", but not the top brass ten minutes earlier? None of them.

Because the engineers were in the engine room and know how fast it was flooding. Once power was lost there was nothing else they could do. Once the lifeboat station call went out they did what anyone else would do, they got off the ship.

Why do you think the senior officers would not be getting off until later?

 

[LondonJohn]

<sfx gurgling sound like water going down a drain aka hearty laughter>

What?

 

[LondonJohn]

You only need to note how Sillaste was brutally handcuffed as he was brought in to Turku to be interrogated by an intimidating array of special police together with three PM's.

All credit to Sillaste he stuck to his story of the car ramp being up and pointing out it was normal to leak.

"Brutally handcuffed", eh?

 

[Jack by the hedge]

The helicopters were there to rescue. The hospitals were there to treat people. The police were there to identify people. It is not difficult.


So, IOW, it was pure chance - but high probability nonetheless, being in a proper life boat - that the senior officers would be amongst the first Y64/Y74 came across and rescued, as they would any other human being.


Once despatched to Huddinge and they identified themselves, of course, the Police Chief is going to jump out of bed and say, 'Whoa! Don't let those guys leave!'.

All the senior officers in one boat is scarcely a "high probability". Did none of them have any duties to perform?

And the chances of their being rescued by a flight that hadn't taken off yet is nil.

Why did your imaginary police chief kidnap and "disappear" the first batch of rescued victims but not the others? Or did someone else do that, in your fantasy?

 

[Vixen]

Or really good at it, if the goal is trolling. Look at how much mileage she's getting out of the standard conspiracy chestnuts.

I joined the thread out of interest in what additional investigation would be done on the wreck of MS Estonia given some pretty impressive advances in the science of underwater wreck investigation. If you've seen what the U.S. National Parks people have done to explore, unmanned, the wreck of USS Arizona, you can immediately see what the opportunities could present for further investigation of MS Estonia.

But instead we have been treated to nothing more impressive than the same parade of ignorant conspiracy theories we've endured since the late 1990s. Really nothing has changed, except perhaps for a slapdash coat of paint. The same conspiracy crowd as before has jumped on the new investigations as an excuse to pretend their uninformed ramblings are newly relevant. And as we've seen, Vixen shows absolutely zero interest in whether those decades-old charges have any actual answers from people who actually know what they're talking about. It's just the same old evangelization of the same old ignorant claims.

Vixen, what's your end game here? The zombie EPIRB issue shows amply that you have zero interest in what anyone else has to say. You're literally just quoting chapter and verse from the same old conspiracy theories that have failed to gain any measurable traction for the better part of three decades. You've demonstrate absolutely no ability or desire to learn something that hasn't been spoon-fed to you by people desperate for attention (which may or may not include you).

What's your end game? Pretend for a minute that this thread will actually end. Tell us what you think the last ten pages of it would look like? What actual conclusions would be drawn? What hypotheses will have been discarded for lack of, or contravening, evidence? What concessions, if any, do you think you will have granted to your critics? What part of the discussion will look any different than the first 20 pages of the first installment of this thread?

In short -- convince me that a thinking person should pay any further attention to you. Convince the world that you're not just using old conspiracy theories to try to look smart and draw attention to yourself.

I would like the whole thing declassified as soon as possible and the families of the victims allowed redress and closure.

None of the marine engineers or sea captains at the time believed the bow visor crock.


The claim the waves knocked off the Atlantic lock causing the bow visor to swing upwards was proven by Dr. Eng. Hans Hoffmeister to be wrong, as he showed it would have been the starboard side lock that would have given way first and the bottom one last. That blows the JAIC early 'Day One' theory out of the water. They completely ignored him.

The actual waterproof bow gate was behind the visor to be lifted in Estonia. If the visor attachment fails, the waves hitting the bow can throw the visor up.
The visor prevents thunderstorms from hitting the car ramp, which cannot withstand their force. According to experts, five to ten waves are enough to slam so much water on an open car deck that the ship capsizes.

Visor protects the car ramp Wind prevented the search for wreckage Finland named its researcher

Helsingin Sanomat 29.9.1994


If the bottom Atlantic lock did not fall off 'causing the bow visor to lift up' then it cannot have happened the way the JAIC claim.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Sabotage is often due to terrorists making a political point. The Soviets who torpedoed Wilhelm Gustloff breaching the convention you do not target hsopital ships had written on each of their torpedoes IIRC, one for Russia, one for Leningrad and the other two of a similar gung-ho ilk (one torpedo got stuck).

So the political landscape is salient.

Cui Bono by covering up the Estonia?

A. The party who wants to over the whole thing up.

Why would the Russians sinking an enemy ship in wartime be anything other than expected?

Wilhelm Gustloff wasn't considered to be, or claimed to be a hospital ship. It was a military transport.
There were many dozens of military and civilian transports sunk by all sides in WW2

As for hospital ships in particular, in WW2
Britain had 6 sunk by German action and 1 by Italian.
Germany had 2 sunk, 1 by Russia and 1e by Britain
Italy had 6 sunk, 5 by the British and 1 by the USA.
Japan had 2 sunk by the USA and 2 lost to other causes
Greece had 4 sunk by the Germans
Australia had 1 sunk by Japan



If you want I can list how many dozens of those were sunk by all sides in WW2.

 

[Andy_Ross]

If Sweden did disappear the senior officers of the Estonia as a 'classifed' act, of course it would have to revise its survivor figures downwards. So the eight or so people Svensson heroically saved and delivered to Huddinge Hospital had to not have happened and instead, his medal was for 'helping Y74 Moberg' rescue six people later in the morning.

But we know that is a lie.
Why do you insist on repeating it?

 

[Vixen]

No, Vixen. No he didn't. He was speaking entirely speculatively to a newspaper which was searching out stories and interesting angles.

He did no more than guess at the types of EPIRB that the Estonia carried. He, as it turned out, was wrong.

Oh, and again:

STOP USING CONTEMPORANEOUS NEWSPAPER REPORTS FROM THE DAYS FOLLOWING THE DISASTER AS RELIABLE SOURCES.

Wrong again. He was giving an official presentation to the JAIC bods, January 1995, with members of the press invited.

 

[JayUtah]

I would like the whole thing declassified as soon as possible...

I didn't ask for another dump of conspiracy twaddle. I asked what your end game is. Here. On this forum. You don't have a plan. You don't have a clue. All you seem able to do is mindlessly regurgitate what you've steeped yourself in.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

How likely is it that the engineers were up and outta there before you could say, "Jack Robinson", but not the top brass ten minutes earlier? None of them.

"None of them" does not reflect your claim.

Your claim is all of them left the ship together and before anyone else and without any of the crew left manning the bridge remarking on this bizarre event and without any survivor seeing it happen.

It's stupid. You're concocting a convoluted plot involving these 9 purely because you won't accept that early reports can be confused and mistaken, but then hilariously retreating from aspects of it when it's pointed out how dunderheaded the plot actually is.

 

[Reformed Offlian]

The helicopters were there to rescue. The hospitals were there to treat people. The police were there to identify people. It is not difficult.


So, IOW, it was pure chance - but high probability nonetheless, being in a proper life boat - that the senior officers would be amongst the first Y64/Y74 came across and rescued, as they would any other human being.


Once despatched to Huddinge and they identified themselves, of course, the Police Chief is going to jump out of bed and say, 'Whoa! Don't let those guys leave!'.

So, the missing people had nothing to do with the sabotage, then? They were wanted for other reasons and the authorities just acted on an opportunity?

 

[Andy_Ross]

I believe Svensson did heroically save eight people circa 0300 am, as the newspapers said.

Then your belief is false. Y 64 wasn't airborne until 04:45
He rescued one survivor on to Y 64 at around 06:00

He rescued 6 more aboard Y 74 between 07:15 and 07:40

There were 7 survivors landed and one body.

 

[Andy_Ross]

The pub bombings were to do with where soldiers were said to drink. Yes, the IRA made a lot of mistakes when they claimed to avoid civilians! Some guy with a grudge against a battle in India in 1917 just yesterday decided to try to teach the Queen a lesson, so there is often a political statement involved.

the IRA didn't make any 'mistakes' they deliberately targeted civilians.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Danish and Swedish newspapers reported Avo Piht as having gome missing from a Helsinki Hospital.

That is an awful lot of 'clerical errors' for professions such as hospital staff and police to not to properly verify identity.

No That's only one error; an initial error by the press of believing he was there in the first place.