Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part IV

[LondonJohn]

I prefer to believe the expert who actually had the specifications.

No, Vixen. No he didn't. He was speaking entirely speculatively to a newspaper which was searching out stories and interesting angles.

He did no more than guess at the types of EPIRB that the Estonia carried. He, as it turned out, was wrong.

Oh, and again:

STOP USING CONTEMPORANEOUS NEWSPAPER REPORTS FROM THE DAYS FOLLOWING THE DISASTER AS RELIABLE SOURCES.

 

[JayUtah]

I prefer to believe the expert who actually had the specifications.

To believe what you think Koivisto says, we have to believe the buoys can be tuned in the field, which they cannot. And we have to believe in a switch that doesn't appear on the device or in its user manual. To believe what I think that expert says, we only need to believe in how we know the device operates, from multiple sources. Other proffered experts were speculating; they did not have the specifications.

Try to see the distinction between what you prefer to believe and what the demonstrable facts are. If you can.

 

[LondonJohn]

If this topic was about France you would be swearing blind that the capital is not Paris, as a matter of course.

Hahaha oh the irony! The sweet irony

See, Vixen: the facts, the evidence, and the expert well-informed analysis.... are all on our side. They are expressly not on your side.

And it's only you, Vixen, who continues to insist that black is white, in the face of the evidence, and in the face of the consideration of people who - entirely unlike you - have relevant expertise and experience, and who know what they're talking about

 

[Vixen]

What happened to Vixen's claim that the supposed disappeared 9 was just probably a clerical error and they weren't actually disappeared?

She seems to have gone full conspiracy mode on them and has concocted a rather fantastical scenario of them being secretly whisked from the scene of the sinking by a secret helicopter flight, by authorities that somehow knew exactly who to disappear, how to find them in the darkness and chaos of the aftermath, and were able to put their plan into operation almost immediately after the sinking actually happened.

If it was a clerical error, we can see no correction of it anywhere, or explanation of how they got listed as survivors in the first place.

Danish and Swedish newspapers reported Avo Piht as having gome missing from a Helsinki Hospital.

From Helsingin Sanomat 30.9.1994:

Last Friday, Swedish and Danish newspapers reported that Piht had disappeared from a hospital in Helsinki. The newspapers referred to information provided by the Helsinki police.

That is an awful lot of 'clerical errors' for professions such as hospital staff and police to not to properly verify identity.

 

[Andy_Ross]

If all of the engineers managed to get away from Deck 0, it indicates the Chief Engineer, Chief Navigator, Chief Doctor, Second Captain from decks 4,5 and 6 must have had an even better chance of safe escape.

Isn't it kind of weird the entire early JAIC theory rested solely on the word of third or fourth engineer Sillaste, who never claimed the bow visor was missing nor the car ramp open. In fact, he said it wasn't the first time he'd seen water leaking in.

HS 29.9.1994

Why would you expect them to be on the accommodation decks? I would expect them to be at whatever their emergency stations were.
Senior officers would be expected to be pretty busy up until the last moment.

A sinking in a storm is a matter of luck as much as anything.
Just getting off the ship safely is the first hurdle.
Getting into a raft or boat is the second, there is a reason it is usual to assign two trained crew members to each raft or boat.
Staying alive long enough to be rescued is the main one.

 

[LondonJohn]

The helicopters were there to rescue. The hospitals were there to treat people. The police were there to identify people. It is not difficult.


So, IOW, it was pure chance - but high probability nonetheless, being in a proper life boat - that the senior officers would be amongst the first Y64/Y74 came across and rescued, as they would any other human being.


Once despatched to Huddinge and they identified themselves, of course, the Police Chief is going to jump out of bed and say, 'Whoa! Don't let those guys leave!'.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!

 

[LondonJohn]

If it was a clerical error, we can see no correction of it anywhere, or explanation of how they got listed as survivors in the first place.

Danish and Swedish newspapers reported Avo Piht as having gome missing from a Helsinki Hospital.

From Helsingin Sanomat 30.9.1994:



That is an awful lot of 'clerical errors' for professions such as hospital staff and police to not to properly verify identity.

I refer you once again, Vixen, to the final sentence in my post #2181

 

[Vixen]

Point being; Nazi Germany is not a good example of anything. And the Estonia had nothing to do with Nazi Germany, or WWII.

Up your game to a first-grade level, please.

Sabotage is often due to terrorists making a political point. The Soviets who torpedoed Wilhelm Gustloff breaching the convention you do not target hsopital ships had written on each of their torpedoes IIRC, one for Russia, one for Leningrad and the other two of a similar gung-ho ilk (one torpedo got stuck).

So the political landscape is salient.

Cui Bono by covering up the Estonia?

A. The party who wants to over the whole thing up.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

If all of the engineers managed to get away from Deck 0, it indicates the Chief Engineer, Chief Navigator, Chief Doctor, Second Captain from decks 4,5 and 6 must have had an even better chance of safe escape.

No, it doesn't mean that.

You are making two false assumptions; that everyone started trying to escape at the same moment and that everyone had an equally unimpeded escape route. Crew on deck 0 who found water lapping around their knees knew what that meant and got the hell out. Those on decks 4 and above didn't get that stark warning.

Isn't it kind of weird the entire early JAIC theory rested solely on the word of third or fourth engineer Sillaste, who never claimed the bow visor was missing nor the car ramp open. In fact, he said it wasn't the first time he'd seen water leaking in.

Weird? It's kind of weird that you think some water leaks Sillaste may have seen before are in any way equivalent to the water he described cascading in, up the full height of both sides of the ramp. Important though that evidence is, it's weird that you assume the entire investigation rested on it. It's completely bizarre that you think the fact that the ramp had not yet been torn open when Sillaste saw it makes a jot of difference to what actually happened.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

That is correct but they each had a team leader. Aftonbladet hailed Kenneth Svensson of Y64 as a 'hero' who 'saved 8 human lives' on the 28.9.1994 (day of the accident itself). Y74 was staffed by Olli Moberg.

We can read it in the report. You should try that some time.

Meanwhile what, if anything, is your point?

 

[Jack by the hedge]

I prefer to believe the expert who actually had the specifications.

You don't have his report.

You clearly prefer to use secondhand sources.

 

[Vixen]

The true number of survivors isn't 'fudged' at all.
The number rescued by each helicopter is detailed in the report.

If Sweden did disappear the senior officers of the Estonia as a 'classifed' act, of course it would have to revise its survivor figures downwards. So the eight or so people Svensson heroically saved and delivered to Huddinge Hospital had to not have happened and instead, his medal was for 'helping Y74 Moberg' rescue six people later in the morning.

 

[Andy_Ross]

That is correct but they each had a team leader. Aftonbladet hailed Kenneth Svensson of Y64 as a 'hero' who 'saved 8 human lives' on the 28.9.1994 (day of the accident itself). Y74 was staffed by Olli Moberg.

The pilot leads, the rescue man is the one that is lowered to retrieve survivors and bring them back to the aircraft.

Svensson recovered one survivor on Y 64 which after it's winch broke returned to shore, and he recovered 7 survivors and one body on Y 74.

 

[Vixen]

Which is correct.

I believe Svensson did heroically save eight people circa 0300 am, as the newspapers said.

 

[LondonJohn]

Sabotage is often due to terrorists making a political point. The Soviets who torpedoed Wilhelm Gustloff breaching the convention you do not target hsopital ships had written on each of their torpedoes IIRC, one for Russia, one for Leningrad and the other two of a similar gung-ho ilk (one torpedo got stuck).

So the political landscape is salient.

Cui Bono by covering up the Estonia?

A. The party who wants to over the whole thing up.

Oh great. We're back to the "impressive" Latin terms again.

And your fundamental - and fatal - flaw is that you appear to have uncritically decided* that this was not simply a tragic accident**; that it was in fact deliberately planned and executed.

Then, once you've made that (entirely unsupported by any evidence, and in fact contradicted by parts of the evidence set) leap of logic, you appear to believe you can then segue right into a straight-faced "debate" about who would have most benefitted from the total loss of the Estonia.

Breathtaking in its arrogance and its stupidity.


* no doubt due at least in part to your rich diet of ludicrous conspiracy theories from the likes of EFD and Bjorkman

** albeit one caused by human error in the design/construction/maintenance of the bow visor locks

 

[Andy_Ross]

I prefer to believe the expert who actually had the specifications.

We have the specifications and model designation of the buoys used. We know they were recovered in working order, turned off with full batteries.

We know how the buoys work and that they have only one switch which activates the distress signal or turns it off.

 

[LondonJohn]

If Sweden did disappear the senior officers of the Estonia as a 'classifed' act, of course it would have to revise its survivor figures downwards. So the eight or so people Svensson heroically saved and delivered to Huddinge Hospital had to not have happened and instead, his medal was for 'helping Y74 Moberg' rescue six people later in the morning.

We thought you said you didn't deal in hypotheticals, Vixen.

 

[Vixen]

Uh, what?

Canary Wharf was not a military target.

Bishopsgate was not a military target.

The Baltic Exchange was not a military target.

They were all specifically economic targets.

Manchester City centre was not a military target.

The Birmingham and Guildford pubs were not military targets.

Etc. etc.

The pub bombings were to do with where soldiers were said to drink. Yes, the IRA made a lot of mistakes when they claimed to avoid civilians! Some guy with a grudge against a battle in India in 1917 just yesterday decided to try to teach the Queen a lesson, so there is often a political statement involved.

 

[Andy_Ross]

If this topic was about France you would be swearing blind that the capital is not Paris, as a matter of course.

Do we take this answer to mean you can't quote the manual from the EPIRB model that was on the Estonia that supports your claims?

 

[Vixen]

Oh dear.

An alluring combo of 1) misrepresenting my position in order to (attempt to, but fail miserably to) mock it; and 2) doubling down on stupid wrt your own bogus claims about the inevitability of turning turtle.

I've come to expect nothing better from you though, unfortunately.

<sfx gurgling sound like water going down a drain aka hearty laughter>