Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part IV

[Andy_Ross]

Is he not supposed to 'share' six with Y74?

Helicopters are not people. Y 64 rescued 1 person. Y 74 rescued 6

The rescue man recovered one survivor to Y 64 then was left in the water. He was rescued by Y 74 and replaced the rescue man of that helicopter who was injured and rescued a further 6 people before being injured himself.

This has been stated several times just today!

 

[LondonJohn]

Sure.

HS 9.10.1994

Holy Moly, Vixen.

Once again:

STOP USING CONTEMPORANEOUS NEWSPAPER REPORTS FROM THE EARLY DAYS AFTER THE DISASTER AS RELIABLE SOURCES OF INFORMATION.


How is this message not getting through to you??? Shall I repeat it in larger type to make it more obvious?

In this particular instance, the newspaper dug out some generic information on EPIRBs and got some generic quotes from someone with no direct connection to the disaster..... and the newspaper got it wrong.

 

[Axxman300]

It is not difficult. As Sweden on behalf of the CIA was actively smuggling out Former Soviet Union state secrets

Why on behalf of the CIA? Sweden is a major manufacturer of top-quality weapons sold worldwide. Maybe they wanted to broaden their line to include smoky diesel engines, tanks with lousy brakes, 1960s-quality 90s Russian radar.

- and we know how jealously the Russians guarded them!

...Except they were the ones selling them...

during September 1994 and notwithstanding the new EU edict tightening the transportation of dangerous goods and chemicals on the waterways,

...Because smugglers observe all the laws...

one can correctly perceive and urgent meeting of its defence forces - headed by Emil Svensson in a hastily convened COBRA-style meeting, coming to a decision to cover the whole thing up and agreeing an outrageous The Herald of Free Entetprise cock-and-bull story to feed to the media, then we can see the wheels rolling into effect.

Cool, so you can cite witness reports of such a meeting, complete with time, date, location, and participating attendees.

So, the senior crew members having by happenstance to have been rescued early by Y64 and Y74 and brought to Huddinge, they no doubt were interviewed by SäPo and Sweden not being averse to disappearing people at the request of the CIA acquiesced and decided to 'extradite' them.

Liar.

You have yet to cite a case dating from 1994 or years prior wherein Sweden disappeared anyone either on their own initiative, or at the behest of a foreign government.

More embarrassing still is the fact that you have yet to lay out a motive for silencing these crew members.

This is backed up by the Estonian Embassy in Stockholm being refused access to their citizens. Survivors report being marched onto buses on arrival at the mainland whether they liked it or not

I doubt they cared.

isolated in hospital wards, not allowed to ring home without revealing to the SäPo the ID verification of whom they were ringing.

They were isolated to keep from being pestered by the press.

And the phone thing? ALL hospitals use some kind of PBX phone system, it's standard, not suspicious unless you're mental.

Many of the non-Estonian survivors in Finland were simply allowed to go home without any interview at all by anyone.

And?

These will all have been decisions made as a result of urgent talks and panic about their esponiage activities being revealed to the world and POTUS Bill Clinton's 'Peacemaker in the Middle East' soiled.

Do you know how a calendar works?

Clinton's Middle East peace agreement didn't happen until the year 2000.

I'll do the math for you since you're bad at that too...1994 is 6 years prior to the year 2000. Clinton, the US, the CIA, had nothing to do with the sinking of the Estonia, nor did it have any input into the investigation, and actions of the Swedish, Estonian, and Finish governments surrounding this event.

Avo Piht was transferred to Turku and then onto Helsinki for the flight back to Sweden with the Swedish government bods and SäPo. He was never seen or heard again since.

Yes, and he and Spiderman were never seen in the same room. Coincidence?

Military Chief Svensson recommended on Day Two that the bodies should not be recovered. A concrete cover was concocted via Riksdag to cover the whole thing up.

Citation needed.

A Treaty was drawn up signed by the UK - MI6 was helping CIA and KSI in Estonia - preventing anyone looking into the wreckage too closely.

I have footage of the CIA-MI6 meeting:

 

[JayUtah]

You are really bad at this.

Or really good at it, if the goal is trolling. Look at how much mileage she's getting out of the standard conspiracy chestnuts.

I joined the thread out of interest in what additional investigation would be done on the wreck of MS Estonia given some pretty impressive advances in the science of underwater wreck investigation. If you've seen what the U.S. National Parks people have done to explore, unmanned, the wreck of USS Arizona, you can immediately see what the opportunities could present for further investigation of MS Estonia.

But instead we have been treated to nothing more impressive than the same parade of ignorant conspiracy theories we've endured since the late 1990s. Really nothing has changed, except perhaps for a slapdash coat of paint. The same conspiracy crowd as before has jumped on the new investigations as an excuse to pretend their uninformed ramblings are newly relevant. And as we've seen, Vixen shows absolutely zero interest in whether those decades-old charges have any actual answers from people who actually know what they're talking about. It's just the same old evangelization of the same old ignorant claims.

Vixen, what's your end game here? The zombie EPIRB issue shows amply that you have zero interest in what anyone else has to say. You're literally just quoting chapter and verse from the same old conspiracy theories that have failed to gain any measurable traction for the better part of three decades. You've demonstrate absolutely no ability or desire to learn something that hasn't been spoon-fed to you by people desperate for attention (which may or may not include you).

What's your end game? Pretend for a minute that this thread will actually end. Tell us what you think the last ten pages of it would look like? What actual conclusions would be drawn? What hypotheses will have been discarded for lack of, or contravening, evidence? What concessions, if any, do you think you will have granted to your critics? What part of the discussion will look any different than the first 20 pages of the first installment of this thread?

In short -- convince me that a thinking person should pay any further attention to you. Convince the world that you're not just using old conspiracy theories to try to look smart and draw attention to yourself.

 

[Steve]

Or really good at it, if the goal is trolling. Look at how much mileage she's getting out of the standard conspiracy chestnuts.

I joined the thread out of interest in what additional investigation would be done on the wreck of MS Estonia given some pretty impressive advances in the science of underwater wreck investigation. If you've seen what the U.S. National Parks people have done to explore, unmanned, the wreck of USS Arizona, you can immediately see what the opportunities could present for further investigation of MS Estonia.

But instead we have been treated to nothing more impressive than the same parade of ignorant conspiracy theories we've endured since the late 1990s. Really nothing has changed, except perhaps for a slapdash coat of paint. The same conspiracy crowd as before has jumped on the new investigations as an excuse to pretend their uninformed ramblings are newly relevant. And as we've seen, Vixen shows absolutely zero interest in whether those decades-old charges have any actual answers from people who actually know what they're talking about. It's just the same old evangelization of the same old ignorant claims.

Vixen, what's your end game here? The zombie EPIRB issue shows amply that you have zero interest in what anyone else has to say. You're literally just quoting chapter and verse from the same old conspiracy theories that have failed to gain any measurable traction for the better part of three decades. You've demonstrate absolutely no ability or desire to learn something that hasn't been spoon-fed to you by people desperate for attention (which may or may not include you).

What's your end game? Pretend for a minute that this thread will actually end. Tell us what you think the last ten pages of it would look like? What actual conclusions would be drawn? What hypotheses will have been discarded for lack of, or contravening, evidence? What concessions, if any, do you think you will have granted to your critics? What part of the discussion will look any different than the first 20 pages of the first installment of this thread?

In short -- convince me that a thinking person should pay any further attention to you. Convince the world that you're not just using old conspiracy theories to try to look smart and draw attention to yourself.

If Vixen actually thinks that her postings on this topic make her look smart then Vixen has absolutely no concept of how an actual smart person would post, even after reading thousands of responses to her drivel that were written by actual smart people.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Automatically activated buoys are set off by immersion in water. How would they be set off accidentally while a ship is docked?

They also have a manual switch to activate them.
Proper procedure is to turn them on with the switch and throw them in to the sea or attach them to your liferaft.
Automatic release and activation is a 'last resort'. There is no guarantee that a buoy on a sunk ship won't get snagged in the superstructure or rigging ore even fail to release.
.[/QUOTE]

 

[LondonJohn]

Or really good at it, if the goal is trolling. Look at how much mileage she's getting out of the standard conspiracy chestnuts.

I joined the thread out of interest in what additional investigation would be done on the wreck of MS Estonia given some pretty impressive advances in the science of underwater wreck investigation. If you've seen what the U.S. National Parks people have done to explore, unmanned, the wreck of USS Arizona, you can immediately see what the opportunities could present for further investigation of MS Estonia.

But instead we have been treated to nothing more impressive than the same parade of ignorant conspiracy theories we've endured since the late 1990s. Really nothing has changed, except perhaps for a slapdash coat of paint. The same conspiracy crowd as before has jumped on the new investigations as an excuse to pretend their uninformed ramblings are newly relevant. And as we've seen, Vixen shows absolutely zero interest in whether those decades-old charges have any actual answers from people who actually know what they're talking about. It's just the same old evangelization of the same old ignorant claims.

Vixen, what's your end game here? The zombie EPIRB issue shows amply that you have zero interest in what anyone else has to say. You're literally just quoting chapter and verse from the same old conspiracy theories that have failed to gain any measurable traction for the better part of three decades. You've demonstrate absolutely no ability or desire to learn something that hasn't been spoon-fed to you by people desperate for attention (which may or may not include you).

What's your end game? Pretend for a minute that this thread will actually end. Tell us what you think the last ten pages of it would look like? What actual conclusions would be drawn? What hypotheses will have been discarded for lack of, or contravening, evidence? What concessions, if any, do you think you will have granted to your critics? What part of the discussion will look any different than the first 20 pages of the first installment of this thread?

In short -- convince me that a thinking person should pay any further attention to you. Convince the world that you're not just using old conspiracy theories to try to look smart and draw attention to yourself.

Your second paragraph above chimes well with my own motivation for observing this thread and then participating in it. But funnily enough and ironically enough, I might have ended up better informed about this incident (than I otherwise might have been) on account of explaining to Vixen precisely how wrong she was/is in every aspect of her CT machinations.

Personally, I find that in this thread (as well as in several other threads in the forum in which I have a level of interest) there's a serious, rational, well-informed portion of the debate - often/usually involving people who are true experts in a relevant field - and I get a lot out of engaging in this portion of the debate. Then there's the "white noise" portion of the debate: I treat this portion as a sideshow with little more than passing relevance or importance; and I have no trouble in separating the white noise out from the proper debate (and treating those two in very different ways).

In this thread, the source of the white noise is abundantly clear. I've long since stopped considering this white noise as part of the debate proper, and I'm entirely comfortable engaging with the white noise on my own entirely separate terms, as and when I feel like it.

I guess though that the thing about this particular thread (and the same situation has arrived in at least two other threads of "mine" as well) is that the proper portion of the debate has - for now at least - run its course. All reasonable, well-informed critical thinkers know, with a very high degree of confidence, what caused this ship to sink - and what did not cause this ship to sink. We all await any further authorised examination of the wreck, and we wait for the JAIC's successor agency to issue its update. But again, we all know (in broad terms) what that update will say, and what it will not say.

In the meantime though, it's been a genuine pleasure engaging with - and learning from - people who have real expertise in subjects which are central to this disaster and its causes. And as often seems to happen with ISF threads in which there's a high-quality core group of posters, I think we've done a very good job of assessing the disaster in the right way.

 

[LondonJohn]

If Vixen actually thinks that her postings on this topic make her look smart then Vixen has absolutely no concept of how an actual smart person would post, even after reading thousands of responses to her drivel that were written by actual smart people.

Archimedes would be turning turtle* in his grave.


* provided he'd already rotated to something around 90 degrees - at which point his turtling would be inevitable.

 

[Mojo]

If Vixen actually thinks that her postings on this topic make her look smart then Vixen has absolutely no concept of how an actual smart person would post, even after reading thousands of responses to her drivel that were written by actual smart people.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10626367/

 

[Steve]

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10626367/

Indeed. I have mentioned Dunning Kruger Syndrome previously in this thread.

 

[Metullus]

Indeed. I have mentioned Dunning Kruger Syndrome previously in this thread.

It is entirely possible that Dunning Kruger Syndrome was one of the divers on the wreck...

Or, perhaps, a marine engineering expert opining about EPIRBs...

 

[GlennB]

It is entirely possible that Dunning Kruger Syndrome was one of the divers on the wreck...

Or, perhaps, a marine engineering expert opining about EPIRBs...

I thought Dunning Kruger Syndrome was a 60's rock band?

 

[Vixen]

What does it tell us? That they were negligent and left the passengers to die? That they bombed the ship themselves? How does it tell us that? Explain this to me, because I can't see any possible way that crew members being in a life raft could in any conceivable way be evidence of sabotage/attack/coverup.


Good for him. That probably helped him survive. Is this supposed to be suspicious? Can you explain why? People trying to escape a sinking ship in a life raft is the least suspicious thing I have ever heard in my entire life. What am I missing?



Were the captains of the Oceanos, Costa Concordia and Herald of Free Enterprise disappeared? No? So why would Sweden disappear the senior crew of the Estonia for similar negligence?

There is no theory here.

If all of the engineers managed to get away from Deck 0, it indicates the Chief Engineer, Chief Navigator, Chief Doctor, Second Captain from decks 4,5 and 6 must have had an even better chance of safe escape.

Isn't it kind of weird the entire early JAIC theory rested solely on the word of third or fourth engineer Sillaste, who never claimed the bow visor was missing nor the car ramp open. In fact, he said it wasn't the first time he'd seen water leaking in.

The ship's planeman Henrik Sillaste , 45, said there was a problem with the bow gate that opened at sea even before the accident.

HS 29.9.1994

 

[Vixen]

Y64 and Y74 were helicopters, not people.

That is correct but they each had a team leader. Aftonbladet hailed Kenneth Svensson of Y64 as a 'hero' who 'saved 8 human lives' on the 28.9.1994 (day of the accident itself). Y74 was staffed by Olli Moberg.

 

[Vixen]

What you believe is irrelevant. You simply don't know what you're talking about.

Come out of the playground.

 

[Vixen]

The difference between an enclosure and the buoy it enclosed was discussed previously in excruciating detail. You're just pretending none of those forty pages ever happened. What was that about you wanting to get to the bottom of things?

Here's a different strategy: try to convince us you're not a die-hard conspiracy theorist.

I prefer to believe the expert who actually had the specifications.

 

[Vixen]

And you can quote the manual from the EPIRB model that was on the Estonia that says this? Remember, your posts are properly cited, referenced and sourced! (haha!)

Well that proves..... nothing.

If this topic was about France you would be swearing blind that the capital is not Paris, as a matter of course.

 

[JayUtah]

Come out of the playground.

...says the person whose posts seem to have devolved largely to playground taunts.

 

[Vixen]

Not to mention, this whole thing is logistically ridiculous. How could they be sure the nine would survive until they got there? How would the helicopters find those nine specific people in the dark and chaos of the wreckage? If they pulled somebody out of the water, and it wasn't one of the nine, what would they do? Throw them back in?

If the plan was simply to send a helicopter to pluck these nine specific individuals off the Estonia, why sink the ship at all, murder all those other people, and needlessly jeopardize the very thing you're trying to accomplish? Why not just send the helicopter?

ETA: Heck, why even do that? Just detain them at customs.

The helicopters were there to rescue. The hospitals were there to treat people. The police were there to identify people. It is not difficult.


So, IOW, it was pure chance - but high probability nonetheless, being in a proper life boat - that the senior officers would be amongst the first Y64/Y74 came across and rescued, as they would any other human being.


Once despatched to Huddinge and they identified themselves, of course, the Police Chief is going to jump out of bed and say, 'Whoa! Don't let those guys leave!'.

 

[Vixen]

What does any of that have to do with the engineers?

How likely is it that the engineers were up and outta there before you could say, "Jack Robinson", but not the top brass ten minutes earlier? None of them.