Oxford High School, Michigan, school shooting.

[smartcooky]

What a dilemma for future school administrators! They have a fifteen year old who appears to be in distress. They want to send him home but the parents don't want to take responsibility. Do they send him home alone, where he might make an attempt to kill himself? Or keep him in school, where he might start shooting up the place?

It sounds like they need a secure room or two in the school where they can put the youth. Give it windows so it doesn't feel like a jail cell, a bed to lay down on, and perhaps books and magazines. Let the kid have his/her cell phone as well, but not the backpack.

Still sounds too close to a holding cell for my liking. Anyone have a better idea?

Just another example, like arming teachers, of treating the symptom instead of treating the cause...


- Eight children die from gun violence in America. Another 32 are shot and injured... each and every day!

- One out of every ten gun deaths in America are age 19 or younger. Guns are the leading cause of death among American children and teens.

- Children's firearm deaths occur at a rate more than three times higher than drownings.

- The numbers of school shootings in the US is getting worse. There have been 1,316 school shootings since 1970; 236 (18%) of those have happened since Sandy Hook.

- The Secret Service and Department of Education conducted a comprehensive study of school shootings from 1974 to 2000. They found that 93% of school shooters planned the attack in advance

- In 80% of school shootings, at least one other person had knowledge of the attacker’s plan but failed to report it.

- About 68% of gun-related incidents at schools involved guns that were taken from the home, a friend or a relative.

- About 77% of active shooters spent a week or longer planning their attack.

- Nearly all mass attackers in 2018 made threatening or concerning communications and more than 75% elicited concern from others prior to carrying out their attacks.

- In almost every documented case of active shooters, warning signs were given or shown.

- 39% of parents wrongly believe their children don’t know where a gun is stored.

- About 4.6 million American children live in a home where at least one gun is kept loaded and unlocked.


The USA has THE worst record of school shootings in the world. It has had 57 times as many school shootings as all the other major industrialized nations combined, and it WILL continue to have the worst record of school shootings in the world if it continues to fail in its understanding that the cause is the easy access to guns. Arming teachers, secure rooms for kids... just putting a band-aid on the gaping wound

Sources (note: some are PDFs)
https://www.cdc.gov/injury/wisqars/index.html
https://efsgv.org/wp-content/uploads/2019CDCdata.pdf
https://www.thetrace.org/2019/08/children-teens-gun-deaths-data/
https://www.secretservice.gov/data/press/reports/USSS_FY2019_MAPS.pdf
https://www.sandyhookpromise.org/gun-violence/know-the-signs-of-gun-violence/
http://www.aappublications.org/news/2017/05/23/Firearms052317
https://doi.org/10.1007/s11524-018-0261-7

 

[newyorkguy]

School counselors told the parents they had 48 hours to seek counseling for their son, otherwise the school would have to contact Child Protective Services, the letter [sent by Oxford Community Schools Superintendent Tim Throne] reads. When asked to take their child home for the rest of the day, Throne said the student's parents "flatly refused," leaving their son behind to "return to work." Because he had no prior disciplinary actions on his record, school counselors decided to allow him to return to his class rather than send him to what they thought would be an empty home, Throne said, adding the decision was not shared with the principal or assistant principal. link to report on ABC affiliate KDRV TV

I think a problem school counselors faced was based on their training and experience they were probably much more likely to conclude the danger to Ethan Crumbley was suicide. Compared to school shootings, teen suicide is a much more common event -- there's several thousand every year -- and I have a hunch that was what school counselors were most concerned about. I think it's obvious that a school shooting spree was not on their radar.

But even the local prosecutor has questioned the school's failure to search Crumbley's backpack. The prosecutor noted, however, the gun might have been hidden away in another place.

 

[Blue Mountain]

Just another example, like arming teachers, of treating the symptom instead of treating the cause...

(many salient points snipped to avoid repetition)

All too true, I'm afraid. All other civilized countries recognize that guns and kids don't mix—especially handguns and semiautomatic weapons. But given that the second amendment in the USA has been elevated to holy scripture, right now all that can be done is to treat the symptoms.

 

[theprestige]

The problem is that we don't trust our teachers to carry guns responsibly. I'm not saying teachers should all be armed as part of their job description. But if a teacher wanted to carry, as a last line of defense for the children in their care... Well we can't have that. They might flip out and start shooting their students. Of course, they could do that anyway. No school shooter will ever be deterred by a "gun-free zone" placard.

 

[Meadmaker]

Hard to know what the parents said. The mom was telling her side piece it was in the car. The father called shortly after the shooting saying it wasn't at the house.

I think it boils down to the parents had no clue at all where the gun was, they couldn't even keep it straight between themselves, and that's how they ended up catching a charge.

(emphasis added)

Or, they knew that they had let the kid take charge of the gun, but they didn't think that made a very good story once they realized what he had done with it.


That's purely speculation on my part, but it was the first thing I thought of when I heard about the 911 call that they made at 1:37.

(I also say "they", but I don't even know if they were together at the time. I don't know if they were home, or if each had gone separate ways.

 

[Meadmaker]

They might flip out and start shooting their students. Of course, they could do that anyway.

No, they couldn't. If they go totally insane and make a conscious decision to kill some of their students or coworkers, and bring a gun to school for that purpose, then they could commit a school shooting, and no "gun free zone" placard would stop them.

If, on the other hand, they just go into a blind rage and impulsively decide to commit violence, they can only achieve a high body count if they happen to have a gun nearby. Most likely, with no gun the body count would be zero. With a gun, one or more.

If enough teachers have a gun, that is going to happen. It isn't a "maybe". It's just how many and when. And by "enough", I mean 1% or so. According to google, there are 3.6 million teachers in America. 1% would be 36,000. If you put 36,000 people in close contact with a gun for 8 hours a day, somebody is going to shoot somebody.

 

[Pixel42]

Surely the biggest problem with teachers having guns is that a determined student could easily get one off them. No need to find a way of obtaining a gun and bringing it to school if there are plenty already there.

 

[erlando]

Just another example, like arming teachers, of treating the symptom instead of treating the cause...

[Harrowing facts snipped]

But... Mah guhns..

 

[mgidm86]

If people want to go that route then why not just use military personnel to teach the students? It's not like much of our military does anything useful day to day anyways. No offense, but what do you guys do when you aren't marching around base like in the movies? Doo wa diddy diddy dum diddy doo! Send in the Reserves!

Every teacher could be an armed trained killer!

 

[newyorkguy]

...it was the first thing I thought of when I heard about the 911 call that they made at 1:37...

I wonder about the father, James Crumbley, making that call, telling 911 the handgun was 'missing.'

At 1:37 p.m., James Crumbley called 9-1-1 to report that a gun was missing from his house and he believed his son might be the shooter, according to authorities. local news report

At the school meeting a few hours earlier, James and Jennifer Crumbley, the parents, refused to take Ethan home, insisting they had to get back to work. After reports there was a police incident at the school and the school was on lockdown -- at 1:37 James Crumbley is telling the 911 operator he thought his son "might be the shooter," so he knew there had been a shooting -- James Crumbley left work and drove home. What prompted him to do that? He hears about the incident -- maybe his wife called him? -- and right away he leaves work to go check on the handgun he's bought five days earlier for his son.

As for arming the teachers, what good would that have done in this incident? The shootings took place between classes -- when the hallways were filled with students leaving a class to go to the next one -- a teacher getting into a gun battle with Ethan Crumbley in a crowded hallway would have made the situation worse, not better. Add to the fact, would every teacher be armed? Oxford High seems to be a large building. Would the 'armed teacher' have been nearby? Would they have known right away what was happening and where? 'If only a teacher had a gun,' seems like a pure kneejerk reaction to me.

One possible answer could be metal detectors on the entrances, with staff or even a security guard to monitor the kids when they arrive and pass through them. Some schools already have them and they seem to work. .

 

[Carrot Flower King]

I think a problem school counselors faced was based on their training and experience they were probably much more likely to conclude the danger to Ethan Crumbley was suicide. Compared to school shootings, teen suicide is a much more common event -- there's several thousand every year -- and I have a hunch that was what school counselors were most concerned about. I think it's obvious that a school shooting spree was not on their radar.

Genuine question, but what sort of training do school counsellors have in the US?

I ask as a former senior nurse in child and adolescent mental health of around 30 years experience, who also had an additional qualification in counselling, one of whose main areas of interest was self-harm assessment, so I know that this is an area which is trickier than many think. And that's before you get into the complexities of actual assessment for an outright mental illness, which is a lot harder than all those armchair "Oh the killer is obviously mad!" comments would have you believe.

Over here I wouldn't expect someone employed in that sort of role to do any more than be concerned and make a referral to the local CAMHS or get family to go to their GP (yes, I know the US is waaaaay different in that regard) and highlight those concerns within the school's pastoral care system. Mebbe contact social services if there are concerns about parenting and safeguarding. But then, we have gun laws and a non-gun culture...

 

[plague311]

As for arming the teachers, what good would that have done in this incident? The shootings took place between classes -- when the hallways were filled with students leaving a class to go to the next one -- a teacher getting into a gun battle with Ethan Crumbley in a crowded hallway would have made the situation worse, not better. Add to the fact, would every teacher be armed? Oxford High seems to be a large building. Would the 'armed teacher' have been nearby? Would they have known right away what was happening and where? 'If only a teacher had a gun,' seems like a pure kneejerk reaction to me.

Not only that but it would make identifying the actual shooter much harder to discern when the cops did show up, or hell, even when they were being called. We can't pretend like "fog of war" isn't a thing. If the cops show up and there are random people shooting guns, who do they target?

Arming teachers would be asinine. It's the worst solution to school shootings available.

 

[smartcooky]

Not only that but it would make identifying the actual shooter much harder to discern when the cops did show up, or hell, even when they were being called. We can't pretend like "fog of war" isn't a thing. If the cops show up and there are random people shooting guns, who do they target?

Arming teachers would be asinine. It's the worst solution to school shootings available.

So its not at all surprising that Trump and his Republicans proposed it!

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/02/21/politics/trump-listening-sessions-parkland-students/index.html

https://www.businessinsider.com/gop...ers-teachers-reject-the-idea-2018-2?r=AU&IR=T

 

[Checkmite]

Not only that but it would make identifying the actual shooter much harder to discern when the cops did show up, or hell, even when they were being called. We can't pretend like "fog of war" isn't a thing. If the cops show up and there are random people shooting guns, who do they target?

This very problem has already cost at least one life just recently, possibly more over the last several years but my memory is dodgy.

 

[newyorkguy]

What kind of training do school counselors or guidance counselors receive in the United States. Apparently the qualifications are on a state-by-state basis. A recruiting website notes there is a difference between school counselors and guidance counselors.

A guidance counselor and a school counselor are almost the same occupations. However, a school counselor’s responsibilities focus primarily on the academic side of the school experience. A guidance counselor can help with academics, but their work also deals with the personal and social aspects of middle and high school life. Zip recruiter

Specifically, in Michigan, school counselor dot org says,

• Earn a Master’s degree in School Counseling
• Or, earn a Master’s in any other field and then separately, complete at least 30 semester hours of course work in an approved school counseling program
• You will need to have completed a 600 clock hour supervised internship with school-aged individuals. 300 of the 600 clock hours must be served in a school setting.

School Counselor dot org

 

[plague311]

This very problem has already cost at least one life just recently, possibly more over the last several years but my memory is dodgy.

I remember there being a school shooting (I want to say it was a tech school, or something similar) where there was a trained ex-military individual on-campus. He was either attending or giving a speech, and he was questions why, despite being armed, he didn't go out there and engage. He gave pretty much the same answer, "If I did, and the cops showed up, why wouldn't they start shooting at me?"

 

[theprestige]

I remember there being a school shooting (I want to say it was a tech school, or something similar) where there was a trained ex-military individual on-campus. He was either attending or giving a speech, and he was questions why, despite being armed, he didn't go out there and engage. He gave pretty much the same answer, "If I did, and the cops showed up, why wouldn't they start shooting at me?"

1. Sometimes the cops don't show up.

2. Because you advise your administrator that you're going to engage, so that they can apprise the cops of the situation when they do show up.

3. Letting the shooter rampage unopposed until the cops arrive seems suboptimal.

4. Not wanting to risk your life to protect the people around you seems cowardly.

 

[Meadmaker]

1. Sometimes the cops don't show up.

2. Because you advise your administrator that you're going to engage, so that they can apprise the cops of the situation when they do show up.

3. Letting the shooter rampage unopposed until the cops arrive seems suboptimal.

4. Not wanting to risk your life to protect the people around you seems cowardly.

All of those things are true. And if you look at various school shooting incidents, you can see that an armed teacher would probably have saved some lives. It took 6 1/2 minutes to kill 17 people at Parkland, maybe if some teachers had been armed, they could have taken the kid out after he had killed only 10. That would have been a good thing.

The fallacy involved there is looking at only the situations where armed teachers could have helped. In addition to those situations, there are plenty of situations, like at Oxford, where the fatal shots had already been fired by the time any teacher could have reacted.

Far worse, though, are the incidents that never happened, but would have happened if guns were present. It could be a teacher going over the edge and killing one or more students or staff. It could be an accidental shooting. It could be a teacher misjudging a situation and deciding that deadly force is warranted when it isn't. It could be a situation where deadly force really would be acceptable, but the teacher misjudges the situation and shoots the wrong person.

If you arm 36,000 people, to use the number I used before, representing 1% of the teacher population, those events are going to happen. It isn't a question of "if". It's just a question of "how often".

We arm policemen, and all of those things happen. In the case of policemen, we are dealing with trained people who deal with violence every day. Their training is far, far, more extensive than what the teachers would receive, and they have far, far, more experience than teachers would have, and yet cops still end up killing people that really ought not to have been killed. If that happens with cops, do you think for a minute that wouldn't happen with a bunch of teachers who have had an eight hour "gun safety and use of force" training seminar?

Arming teachers is daft, and would make the problem of gun violence in schools worse, not better.

 

[theprestige]

It could be a teacher going over the edge and killing one or more students or staff.

You make some good points, but I think this one is a red herring. Obviously a teacher who has a gun and wants to start shooting up a school isn't going to be any more deterred by a "no guns allowed" policy than the students are.

In fact, I don't think we've seen any evidence at all that a "no guns allowed" policy, without a blanket search and detain component, has any deterrent effect on would-be school shooters.

 

[newyorkguy]

Sometimes the cops don't show up....

The above link -- mislabeled "Sometimes the cops don't show up" -- is actually a link to a Wikipedia story about a school resource officer ("a cop") who was assigned to a South Florida high school when a former student began roaming the halls and shooting people. The resource officer, wearing a bullet proof vest, was already there. He was accused of remaining outside the school building during the carnage in which 34 people were shot, 17 fatally.

The resource officer said afterwards, "I didn't know where the shots were coming from." CNN report

Below is an image captured by a school hallway camera, showing the gunman Nikolas Cruz during the shooting spree. Cruz, who pleaded guilty to 17 counts of murder, is about to be sentenced in February. He faces a minimum sentence of life-no-parole. The maximum sentence would be the death penalty.