Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part IV

[Vixen]

Are you serious with this?

The press? The Press in Germany, in 1945? The Press in Nazi Germany in 1945 didn't report something?

You are really, really, really awful at this.

And what kind of person brings up obscure WWII mass killings at a Christmas party anyway?

Hello? These were >6,000 civilians. Any male over the age of 16 on this ship had to explain why he was not on the front line fighting (IOW injured and part of the hospitalised mob).

Operation Hannibal was the naval evacuation of German troops and civilians from Poland and the Baltic states as the Red Army advanced. Wilhelm Gustloff's final voyage was to evacuate German refugees, military personnel, and technicians from Courland, East Prussia, and Danzig-West Prussia. Many had worked at advanced weapon bases in the Baltic[13] from Gotenhafen to Kiel.[14]

The ship's complement and passenger lists cited 6,050 people on board, but these did not include many civilians who boarded the ship without being recorded in the official embarkation records.

wiki

These were ordinary North Germans civilians.

The point being made is that just because there is a news blackout (= a cover up) does not make it a 'conspiracy theory'.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

If these senior crew members were in a life boat (as opposed to the common or garden inflatable raft) they would have been easily spotted by any early helicopter.

Pointless speculation. What makes a boat easier to spot than a life raft? What if they had already been found by one of the ships? How could a helicopter know which boat or raft to go for? How did the mystery nine all know to get in the same boat? When did the Swedes work out who their 9 suspects were, decide they needed to be "disappeared" and calculate how to find them?

This conspiracy is utter nonsense from start to finish.

 

[Vixen]

Why don't you just for once read the report? Are you worried it'll cast an evil spell on you?

The report says helicopter Y64 did not arrive until almost 06:00 am.

Y 64 took off from Berga at 0445 hrs, picked up a physician and a nurse from Huddinge Hospital and arrived at the scene of the accident at 0552 hrs.

JAIC 7.5.5

Note how it cleverly omits to mention whether this is its first or second flight.

Aftonbladet confirms two days running (28 and 29 Sept 1994) he left Berga at 0200 arriving by about 0300 and rescued eight or nine off his own bat.


You attempt at casting aspersions is noted as 'truly pathetic'/


Please kindly do do better, if you wouldn't mind awfully, please, thank you so much for your cooperation and have a nice day!

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Explain how the Swedes did it, Vixen. From the first moment they heard the Estonia had sent a Mayday, why did they decide to "disappear" 9 of its officers and how did they work out how they were going to find them before anyone else did?

 

[Vixen]

You showed us an accompanying photo of that gash at the time. Except it was only 1 or 2 metres wide, not 22m. And it was much too small to have caused the rapid sinking. The report (you should read it some day) estimates an opening of around 10 sq m would be required.

I defer to your marine expertise.















_NOT!

 

[Vixen]

If you want to call errors in early newspaper reports "knowingly lying" rather than initial confusion then that's your affair.

Wait! You were the one who claimed it was a lie that Svensson set off at 0200 and saved a whole boat/raft load of people. How do you know Aftonbladet were lying when it repeated the claim the very next day?

 

[Vixen]

That's not what he said. You're trying to introduce a fantasy where the buoys were removed before the disaster and then "planted" hundreds of km away and everyone knew if they had been in the sea they would have activated but finds this so unremarkable they don't even mention the inconsistency.

Its beyond stupid.

Marine telecommunications expert, Asser Koivisto - appointed by JAIC to investigate the EPIRB's - saw them and actually handled them. Or is he, too, part of your 'conspiracy theory to do the JAIC report down'?

The Commission gave high priority to the emergency buoys and Asser Koivisto valued their role. "This is the rescue system I trust the most," he told journalists Anders Jörle and Anders Hellberg, who published the book Disaster Course: Estonia's Road to Destruction (1997).

There, Koivisto says that the emergency buoys were sandy and really looked like they had floated ashore.

"But both transmitters were turned off," he says.

He also mentions rumors that the EPIRB buoys would never have been on board, but planted on the beach just to give the impression of being Estonias.

"I do not believe in those speculations," Koivisto says in the book.

Svenska YLE ibid

 

[Vixen]

Pointless speculation. What makes a boat easier to spot than a life raft? What if they had already been found by one of the ships? How could a helicopter know which boat or raft to go for? How did the mystery nine all know to get in the same boat? When did the Swedes work out who their 9 suspects were, decide they needed to be "disappeared" and calculate how to find them?

This conspiracy is utter nonsense from start to finish.

They were all billeted together as senior crew members.

Captain Jan-Tore Thörnroos says very clearly in his video interview that his ship rescued 'about 40' people whilst the JAIC puts it at 15 and together with the Super Puma (which landed on deck) took 25 all together to Uto.

All in all, the MARIELLA rescued 15 persons from the ESTONIA`s liferafts.

The MARIELLA continued her own rescue work until dawn, by which time the constantly worsening weather prevented her from keeping one side to the wind. She began to roll so heavily as to endanger the safety of her passengers and cargo.

The vessel turned to the wind and proceeded slowly, searching for liferafts. A report of any rafts sighted was made to the helicopters, which lifted people from the rafts and brought them to the vessels and to land-based assembly points. In this way 11 more persons were rescued, and brought by the OH-HVG helicopter to the MARIELLA at 0657 hrs. These survivors were treated by the vessel's own personnel together with three physicians and 30 nurses among the passengers. One of the survivors was transferred by helicopter to Hanko for hospital treatment for a broken leg.

At 1320 hrs the MARIELLA received permission to continue to Stockholm. The vessel arrived in Stockholm at 2355 hrs with the 25 survivors.

JAIC 7.5.3

Note how the JAIC doesn't provide any identifying features of who exactly was rescued. I believe their confusing account is deliberately intended.

 

[Vixen]

Explain how the Swedes did it, Vixen. From the first moment they heard the Estonia had sent a Mayday, why did they decide to "disappear" 9 of its officers and how did they work out how they were going to find them before anyone else did?

Note how everybody is to blame except Sweden: Finland for the mayday/telecommunications cock-ups, the shipbuilders for the ship design, the Finns for inventing the bow visor.

Nice one.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Are you serious with this?

The press? The Press in Germany, in 1945? The Press in Nazi Germany in 1945 didn't report something?

You are really, really, really awful at this.

And what kind of person brings up obscure WWII mass killings at a Christmas party anyway?

HMS Barham was sunk by a U-Boat on 24 November 1941 to conceal the sinking from the Germans and to protect British morale, the Admiralty censored all news of the sinking.
After a delay of several weeks the War Office notified the next of kin, but they added a special request for secrecy.
The Admiralty officially announced the loss on 27 January 1942 and explained that it was clear at that time that the enemy did not know that she had been sunk, and it was important to make certain dispositions before the loss of this ship was made public.

As for flooding in the engine rooms. The Board of enquiry in to the sinking of the Ark Royal found that

Once the boilers and steam-driven dynamos were knocked out, the loss of power made damage control difficult. The committee recommended the design of the bulkheads and boiler intakes in future ships be improved to decrease the risk of widespread flooding in boiler rooms and machine spaces

Once again, a ship is not watertight from above in it's machinery spaces if the machinery is in use.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

I defer to your marine expertise.































_NOT!

I refer to your photo. Oops!

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Wait! You were the one who claimed it was a lie that Svensson set off at 0200 and saved a whole boat/raft load of people. How do you know Aftonbladet were lying when it repeated the claim the very next day?

What time did you tell us the Swedish authorities were passed the mayday message?

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Marine telecommunications expert, Asser Koivisto - appointed by JAIC to investigate the EPIRB's - saw them and actually handled them. Or is he, too, part of your 'conspiracy theory to do the JAIC report down'?



Svenska YLE ibid

That doesn't say what you want it to say.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Note how everybody is to blame except Sweden: Finland for the mayday/telecommunications cock-ups, the shipbuilders for the ship design, the Finns for inventing the bow visor.



Nice one.

Evasion noted. Your conspiracy theory is of a secret Swedish helicopter mission to grab the mystery 9. Well, tell us how that worked. What was the plan?

 

[JesseCuster]

Explain how the Swedes did it, Vixen. From the first moment they heard the Estonia had sent a Mayday, why did they decide to "disappear" 9 of its officers and how did they work out how they were going to find them before anyone else did?

Note how everybody is to blame except Sweden: Finland for the mayday/telecommunications cock-ups, the shipbuilders for the ship design, the Finns for inventing the bow visor.

Nice one.

How about you answer the question?

How were the authorities able to immediately know that there was sabotage, know who of the crew was responsible, and be able to whisk them away secretly during the rescue operation when people were being picked out of the water or from lifeboats?

 

[Andy_Ross]

Yu keep saying he saved six, together with another helicopter crew Y74, who got the actual credit. How jolly sporting of the JAIC to hand Svensson the booby prize!

He saved 1 on Y 64 and 6 on Y 74, while doing this he was injured.

The Y 74 rescue man was injured rescuing the Y 64 rescue man.

They both got medals for their actions.

JAIC did not award the medals, they had nothing to do with it.

 

[Andy_Ross]

See your own diagram of the 40° tilted boat and consequent switch to negative stability meaning unless some kind of drastic righting action is taken, it is done for.

It is still stable when at a negative angle. That's what the word stability means. It is different for each ship and each flooding circumstance.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Yes, that all happened at five or six in the morning. Of all the dozens of helicopter crew, why do you think Kenneth Svensson was singled out as a particular hero?

Clue: see the early Swedish newspapers that have him arriving at 03:00 and taking about eight or nine rescued people to Huddinge.

That also explains why he managed to pick up 'a nurse and and docter from Huddinge' on his return flight.

Because he didn't pick anyone up at 03:00.
They picked up the medical staff on the way to the search area.

He was singled out because he worked on two separate helicopters and like the rescue man of Y 74 who also got an award he was injured while performing his duties.

You need to ask the organisation that awarded the medals. I am sure there is a citation somewhere.
It was nothing to do with the JAIC. They didn't award any medals.

 

[Andy_Ross]

I believe the marine communications expert, Koivisto and the Rockwater guys when they reported they retrieved one HRU from an empty casing.

What do you think the 'Rockwater guys' retrieved? Here's a clue. it wasn't a buoy.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

They were all billeted together as senior crew members.

So what? How many were on duty when the emergency began? How many sleeping? How many in the bar?

Let's look at your conspiracy theory from their end: Why did Sweden want them? Had they committed some crime the Swedes wanted them punished for? If so, what's the tearing rush to try to find them?

Were they secretly working for Sweden? Doing what? What could have required the sooper seekrit helicopter flight?

The only way I can see it working is if Sweden knew in advance. And that means the ship was sabotaged. And if the mystery 9 all knew to get in the same boat then they were in on it. They were the saboteurs.

So let's unpack that plan from their p.o.v. On Swedish orders they sabotage their own ship, in some way the survivors accounts will suggest was an accident. Then they all get off in the same boat. Then they wait for a helicopter, somehow avoiding all other boats and rafts and rescue ships and non-Swedish helicopters. Then they get found somehow and whisked away and never see their families again.

Can you see any reason they might go along with that madness? You'd have to be a raving lunatic.