Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part IV

[zooterkin]

There are nearly 1,000 corpii delicti.

Do you ever consider checking facts before posting? I think you mean corpora delicti.

 

[Vixen]

Was it shaped like a squirrel? Because this post sure is. I take it from your frantic avoidance of the subject that you have no response to the point: the JAIC report did not underreport the number of people Svensson rescued.

Yu keep saying he saved six, together with another helicopter crew Y74, who got the actual credit. How jolly sporting of the JAIC to hand Svensson the booby prize!

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Of course Vixen checks facts before posting. She checks them on EFD and then parrots them here as if we hadn't already had a several hundred page discussion about what actually happened.

 

[Vixen]

Why should it have capsized ‘right over’?
How far over is ‘right over’?

See your own diagram of the 40° tilted boat and consequent switch to negative stability meaning unless some kind of drastic righting action is taken, it is done for.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Yu keep saying he saved six, together with another helicopter crew Y74, who got the actual credit. How jolly sporting of the JAIC to hand Svensson the booby prize!

Why don't you just for once read the report? Are you worried it'll cast an evil spell on you?

 

[Vixen]

It rescued one survivor and then the winch failed leaving the rescue man in the water.
It had to return to base for repair.
Y 64 rescue man was picked up by a different helicopter and replaced that helicopters injured rescue ma.

You know this.

Yes, that all happened at five or six in the morning. Of all the dozens of helicopter crew, why do you think Kenneth Svensson was singled out as a particular hero?

Clue: see the early Swedish newspapers that have him arriving at 03:00 and taking about eight or nine rescued people to Huddinge.

That also explains why he managed to pick up 'a nurse and and docter from Huddinge' on his return flight.

 

[Vixen]

No, claim you. You admit he refers to some switch. You claim it's a kind of safety switch. There is no such switch on the beacon. There is only the switch that manually activates it when it is meant to be used. We discussed this at extreme length including considerable research done by people who aren't you. Please are least pretend that there are other people in this thread.

I believe the marine communications expert, Koivisto and the Rockwater guys when they reported they retrieved one HRU from an empty casing.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

I believe the marine communications expert, Koivisto and the Rockwater guys when they reported they retrieved one HRU from an empty casing.

That's not in dispute.

The fact that you raise it at all suggests you don't grasp what is being said about the buoys, which is hard to believe.

 

[Vixen]

No they didn’t have these features.
What is your evidence that they did?

What does Bildt have to do with it?

Helsingin Sanomat 1.10.1994.

Of course, the Brits assumed the vessel was as ramshackle as its own Townsend Thoresen/P&O Ferries abominations and even put out a Panorama programme claiming the Finnish/Swedish ferries were 'floating coffins'. Well, it was wrong. The Scandinavians and Germans are light years ahead in marine engineering.

British experts: Restructure of Roro vessels to be changed

PYLÄNEN Dictation

1.10.1994 2:00

LONDON - New car [vessel] driving regulations from the UN's International Maritime Organisation (IMO) are coming into force today. Estonia, which sank in the Baltic Sea, was more seaworthy under these rules than many of the world's 4,600 roro ships. It met 95% of the requirements now in force, according to the French classification society Bureau Veritas. If a ship covers only 70% of the standards, it will no longer be able to operate today without repairs. Old ro-roships will not have to carry out all the reforms until 2007.

HS

 

[Vixen]

Which hole in the hull?
You mean the missing bow?

Where there is a 22m by 4m hole in the starboard side, caused either by a submarine crash or explosives or other, before it sank.

(Yes, we know the Baltic Sea has a rocky seabed in places, thanks to the Last Glacial Maximum.)

 

[Vixen]

There were no earlier flights.
We have exact accounts.
You have been shown the sections of the report that details this.

Why do you lie?

So the Swedish Aftonbladet were knowingly lying and Svensson was a false hero, when Moberg deserved more accolades than him?

 

[Vixen]

When they were tested they worked perfectly as designed.

If they were were automatic and working perfectly they would have transmitted a distress and when found the batteries would have been dead.

...unless somebody had removed them because they were after all found 200km away in northwest Estonia.


Koivisto who had an exact replica of the thing said the ship's electricians had failed to install them.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Where there is a 22m by 4m hole in the starboard side, caused either by a submarine crash or explosives or other, before it sank.



(Yes, we know the Baltic Sea has a rocky seabed in places, thanks to the Last Glacial Maximum.)

You showed us an accompanying photo of that gash at the time. Except it was only 1 or 2 metres wide, not 22m. And it was much too small to have caused the rapid sinking. The report (you should read it some day) estimates an opening of around 10 sq m would be required.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

So the Swedish Aftonbladet were knowingly lying and Svensson was a false hero, when Moberg deserved more accolades than him?

If you want to call errors in early newspaper reports "knowingly lying" rather than initial confusion then that's your affair.

 

[Vixen]

It doesn’t. It explicitly states that the buoys were off when they were recovered and when activated worked as they should.
When tested they transmitted for over 4 hours showing they had batteries with a full charge.

Yes, they were in working order and had just recently been tested as part of its maintenance routine.


from Helsingin Sanomat 29.9.1994:

Another oddity related to the alarm also occurred in connection with the accident. The ship had an alarm and position buoy for the sarsat-cospas system, which automatically transmits the alarm via satellite while sending the coordinates of its own position.

Kalle Pedak , the director general of the Estonian Maritime Administration , thinks that the buoy was not released into the water, but that it must have gone to the bottom with the ship.

Why would the ship owners say that if it was 'manual operation only'? He would be saying, 'Our guys forgot to turn it on'.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

...unless somebody had removed them because they were after all found 200km away in northwest Estonia.





Koivisto who had an exact replica of the thing said the ship's electricians had failed to install them.

That's not what he said. You're trying to introduce a fantasy where the buoys were removed before the disaster and then "planted" hundreds of km away and everyone knew if they had been in the sea they would have activated but finds this so unremarkable they don't even mention the inconsistency.

Its beyond stupid.

 

[Vixen]

Where does he tell us this?

What model does he say it is?

From Svenska YLE:

On 27 January 1995, the navigation expert Asser Koivisto in Helsinki presented his study of Estonia's EPIRB buoys: radio buoys on the command bridge which, in floating position, [=free float] are to start transmitting an exact GPS position and trigger a major international alarm.

<snip>

Today, not only the emergency buoys have disappeared without a trace. Asser Koivisto's report has also gone up in smoke. Spotlight has searched in Tallinn, Kotka, Helsinki, Turku and Stockholm.

You and your questions.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Yes, they were in working order and had just recently been tested as part of its maintenance routine.





from Helsingin Sanomat 29.9.1994:







Why would the ship owners say that if it was 'manual operation only'? He would be saying, 'Our guys forgot to turn it on'.

Because the buoys had not been found yet so he assumed the release had failed. Quite possibly he didn't know what model was carried.

 

[Vixen]

Because there needs to be a secret helicopter flight that took the Estonia’s officers off in secret so they could be ‘disappeared’

If these senior crew members were in a life boat (as opposed to the common or garden inflatable raft) they would have been easily spotted by any early helicopter.

Look at Oceanos: the captain and his officers could not leave the ship fast enough and they p!ssed off in the nearest lifeboat.

 

[Vixen]

The guy is quoted as saying that when he saw how deep the water was he knew he had to get out of there, because the ship would sink "like a rock". But I'm sure there was a lot going on down there at that point.

It is no coincidence that the crew were safely on life rafts whilst the passengers were still asleep in their cabins.