Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part IV

[LondonJohn]

The fact Carl Bildt and his military chief, Emil Svensson declared within hours of the accident that it was the result of the bow visor falling off due to a design fault.

Common sense tells you this cannot be a conclusion at such an early stage, with ALL of the senior officers unaccounted for and just the fourth engineer's word - who found himself on a raft with early escapees, Treu, Linde, and the newbie, survival-suited - booted and passport in pocket - even before the mayday was received.

Hey Vixen! Do you remember those halcyon days of.....*checks notes* around one month ago, when you were still pretending that the crackpot conspiracy theories you were introducing into this thread were...*checks notes again* just a matter of you dispassionately bringing in (what you considered to be) interesting "current affairs reports".

And yet now, barely a blink later in these timescales, you're a fully paid-up conspiracy theorist yourself!

Is it a miracle? A form of Damascene Conversion? Or were you lying all along when you were saying that you didn't actually believe any of what you were posting, but that instead you were merely reporting what "people" had said, since it was relatively current and relevant to a discussion about the case?

 

[Vixen]

No. That was your claim.

You repeated it dozens of times, until Here_to_learn posted a direct report (rather than your secondhand version) of the press conference which says Bildt refused to speculate on the cause. You responded to that by eliding your claim to a deliberately vague one that either Bildt or Bildt appointees had made the claim instead. Now you seem to have suffered a reset and returned to claiming it was Bildt again.

Bring evidence or drop the claim.

From Helsingin Sanomat 30.9.1994, two days after the accident, a Friday, referring to a press conference Thursday after being appointed by Bildt, Aho and Laar Wedensday, as the JAIC spokesman:

30.9.1994 2:00 Suspicions of a passenger ship for betraying estonia's bow gate were confirmed on Thursday. "Something has happened in it," says Kari Lehtola, Member of the Research Commission.

<snip>

As early as Wednesday, it was believed that water was released from the bow gate to the Estonia car deck and brought down the ship.

<snip>

On Thursday, the Government appointed Kari Lehtola, Deputy Judge, Heimo Iivonen, Executive Director of the Finnish Maritime Rescue Society, and Tuomo Karppinen, Doctor of Technology at VTT VTT's shipbuilding laboratory, as representatives of Finland. The representation set by the Estonian Government did not satisfy President Lennart Mer , who appointed Uno Laurio , a sea captain , as his own representative . Estonian Transport Minister Andi Meister and Minister of the Interior Heiki Arikke - suspected of involvement in illegal arms deals - sit on the Commission. The other members are government officials. Estonia has already doubted the impartiality of the Commission, as the Estonian State is involved in the Estline shipping company. The Commission includes Estonia, Sweden and Finland. The group met for the first time in Turku on Thursday. Visor protects bow gate Wind prevented the search for wreckage Finland named its researcher

Helsingin Sanomat

The JAIC was appointed by Carl Bildt, Esko Aho and Maart Laar.

In an interview, Laar confirm sthe bow visor fell off was Carl Bildt’s strongly confident assertion when they all met up to go to Turku, even thouh he himself believed it was sabotage.

On 28 September 1994 at 16.00 hours – 14 hours after the sinking – the Swedish Prime Minister Carl Bildt declared in Turku, that the accident had been caused by a “design mistake”. Shortly later he forced the Seasafety Director Bengt-Erik Stenmark of Sjöfartsinspektionen – see Chapter 6.3.1 of our Report – to resign under humiliating circumstances as he did not react the way the Prime Minister exspected him to do.

When Bildt was interviewed in 1998 by Peter Öhrn’s Analyse Group* - hereafter called the Peter Öhrn Group – he stated according to the protocol: “It was obvious that the bow visor had gone up.” Already on 28 September 1994 at the airport of Turku Bildt discussed this problem with the Finnish Prime Minister Esko Aho. It was an important matter to both of them as most of the Finland traffic was operated by ferries with bow visors.

EFD

 

[JesseCuster]

If their next of kin can prove they were on the vessel then they can be presumed dead. I think after seven years 'missing' (?) that becomes automatic on declaration.

So the authorities didn’t need DNA or dental records to declare any of the victims dead, contrary to what you claimed and which you have failed to provide evidence for.

 

[Vixen]

Liar.

Sorry? Why do you think I should care about your insults? I would need to value your opinion, first.

 

[Vixen]

Irrelevant.



The JAIC says they were recovered by fishermen, they were not activated, they were tested and they were working perfectly. What more do you need to work it out?

It shouldn't leave people 'to work it out'.

 

[Vixen]

Garbage. I might equally well claim if they were automatic activation types they would have said so. Obviously they didn't spell it out.

But, if they had been automatic types and had failed to start automatically that would have been notable. The fact that they made no remark other than that the beacons were working normally means we can be confident the beacons did not fail to work as designed.

Your personal assumption of malice on the part of the JAIC does not make an impressive argument.

That's right. The JAIC conveniently goes silent on anything to do with communications problems, any suggestion of sabotage or any suggestion the 'accident' could be anything other than a simple bow visor fall-off.

It asserts the vessel was seaworthy when it departed from Tallinn with no issues outstanding.



.

 

[Reformed Offlian]

Y74 was Ollie Moberg

Who got injured right after rescuing Svensson, and who had previously only retrieved bodies. All in black and white in the JAIC report.

Swedish Navy helicopter Y 74 6

All six of whom were rescued by Svensson, as Moberg had been injured right after rescuing *him*. Those six, plus the one on Y 64, equals seven. Those, plus the one who didn't make it, make up the "eight human beings" that Svensson pulled out of the water.

 

[LondonJohn]

The water was obviously coming in through a breach in the hull. Just like the Wilhelm Gustloff or the Titanic. The first passengers to get out were those on Deck 1, together with the three engineers on Deck 0.

You have no idea what you're talking about, Vixen.

The water that reached the lower decks came there via the vehicle deck, with the help of something called "gravity".

The Estonia sank because - and only because - its bow opening failed catastrophically, allowing huge volumes/masses of seawater to enter into the vehicle deck (and from there, down to the lower decks), eventually causing the ship to lose so much buoyancy and lateral stability that it capsized onto its starboard beam. And the rest is history.

 

[Vixen]

So the authorities didn’t need DNA or dental records to declare any of the victims dead, contrary to what you claimed and which you have failed to provide evidence for.

Er, you need definite proof. You can't just ring up the press agencies and claim someone is dead.

 

[Reformed Offlian]

The island of Uto where the survivors from the ships' decks were brought, together with the dead, is just 28 miles from the mainland and Turku Hospital within a few kilometres from the coast. Hanko is a little to the east but still quite close by.

HS 29.9.1994

That doesn't answer the question.

How do you know what Y 64 was doing prior to its reported departure time?

 

[LondonJohn]

The island of Uto where the survivors from the ships' decks were brought, together with the dead, is just 28 miles from the mainland and Turku Hospital within a few kilometres from the coast. Hanko is a little to the east but still quite close by.

HS 29.9.1994

VIXEN: STOP USING CONTEMPORANEOUS NEWSPAPER REPORTS FROM THE DAYS FOLLOWING THE SINKING AS RELIABLE SOURCES OF INFORMATION. OK?

 

[Vixen]

Who got injured right after rescuing Svensson, and who had previously only retrieved bodies. All in black and white in the JAIC report.



All six of whom were rescued by Svensson, as Moberg had been injured right after rescuing *him*. Those six, plus the one on Y 64, equals seven. Those, plus the one who didn't make it, make up the "eight human beings" that Svensson pulled out of the water.

Part of a story is not the full story.

 

[LondonJohn]

It they were 'manually operated only' the JAIC would have said so. When it remains silent you know they are lying by omission.

You have no idea what you're talking about.

The EPIRBs on the Estonia that night were hydrostatically released but manually activated. That's a proven fact. It's been discussed at length within this thread. Do you never actually read other people's posts properly?

 

[Reformed Offlian]

Part of a story is not the full story.

Non-responsive.

The JAIC report accounts for all the people Svensson is claimed by your other sources to have rescued. It doesn't just credit him with the one brought back on Y 64.

ETA: It's ironic that you would choose to make this remark, since it is *you* trying to make part of the story (the one person Svensson brought onto Y64) into the full story (all the people Svensson is supposed to have rescued).

 

[Reformed Offlian]

Citation please.

I'm afraid I don't actually have one. Should I retract and apologize?

 

[Jack by the hedge]

From Helsingin Sanomat 30.9.1994, two days after the accident, a Friday, referring to a press conference Thursday after being appointed by Bildt, Aho and Laar Wedensday, as the JAIC spokesman:

Helsingin Sanomat

The JAIC was appointed by Carl Bildt, Esko Aho and Maart Laar.

In an interview, Laar confirm sthe bow visor fell off was Carl Bildt’s strongly confident assertion when they all met up to go to Turku, even thouh he himself believed it was sabotage.

EFD

You have a newspaper quote of Lehtola, translated as "something has happened to it". Here_to_learn has a report saying Lehtola declined to speculate. That's not evidence for your claim about Bildt.

Yes, the politicians appointed a committee to investigate. That's what ought to happen. That's not evidence that the politicians told the experts what to say. That is conspiracy theory thinking.

Your other quote is from EFD and I frankly don't trust it an inch.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

It shouldn't leave people 'to work it out'.

They named the model. At the time that would have positively identified the type.

They didn't tell us they were manual and they didn't tell us they were automatic. From what they did tell us it is utterly obvious they were manual and it's ridiculous to pretend there is any room for doubt.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

That's right. The JAIC conveniently goes silent on anything to do with communications problems, any suggestion of sabotage or any suggestion the 'accident' could be anything other than a simple bow visor fall-off.

It asserts the vessel was seaworthy when it departed from Tallinn with no issues outstanding.
.

Your frustration that they don't breathlessly repeat your conspiracy theories is not a cause of concern for anyone else.

 

[Vixen]

That doesn't answer the question.

How do you know what Y 64 was doing prior to its reported departure time?

It was in the early edition of the Aftonbladet. If Svensson only got there after 05:00 there is no way it could have got the copy out the same morning.

Kenneth - one of the many Heros of the Night
… Kenneth Svensson 27 years old. One of the many heroes in connection with the ferry disaster. Kenneth Svensson ... is a rescue man. ... Kenneth Svensson, who was first on site of the rescue men, was lowered under dramatic conditions down to the persons in danger. ... The first rescue attempt failed and he was hauled up again to the helicopter. ... people called for help ... -After only just half a minute I made a new attempt and it went better.

-On a capsized raft sat three frozen and apathic men.
Kenneth Svensson could hardly fit the rescue harness around them. ... Eight humans Kenneth Svensson managed to pick up from the sea.
Then he almost drowned himself.

When the last rescued person was going to be lifted, the rescue line got stuck in a rail and the rescue man Kenneth got hanging below the helicopter and he was close to being smashed against the underside of the helicopter in the strong wind. The helicopter crew understood the situation and quickly cut the wire to Kenneth Svensson. With a big splash he fell back into the water and hurt his face and one side of the body. Meanwhile his own helicopter was forced to return to Huddinge hospital with the injured persons and he must be rescued by another helicopter.

From that helicopter Olle Moberg, also 27 years old, was lowered. He managed to secure a new wire around the hero Kenneth Svensson, who was close to lose his own life in the battle to rescue survivors from the Estonia. ...
(Aftonbladet Wednesday 28 September 1994 ; by Sven-Anders Eriksson)

And again, next day:

Sailor Kenneth rescues six - and waited himself in the Water
... Kenneth Svensson assisted as rescue man in one of the first three Vertol-helicopters that left from Berga naval base outside Stockholm. The time was then just after two o'clock in the night. After an hour they arrived. ... The crew discoverered immediately life rafts ... in some were humans. ... Kenneth Svensson was lowered down to one raft with three men. ... After about twenty minutes hard work he had managed to lift all three to the helicopter. ... On another capsized raft there were three more persons, frozen and apathic. Kenneth Svensson could hardly secure the rescue harness around them.
... When Kenneth Svensson was on his way up with the third person, the rescue line got stuck in the undercarriage of the helicopter. The crew managed to get onboard the injured person, but Kenneth Svensson remained hanging below the helicopter. To prevent him from being smashed against the aircraft the line was cut and he fell back into the ... sea. The helicopter was forced to leave Kenneth Svensson alone in the water in order to fly to Huddinge hospital with the injured. In the helicopter were nine persons, one of whom was dead.
Kenneth Svensson ... was rescued ... by another helicopter.
(Aftonbladet Thursday 29 September 1994; by Sven-Anders Eriksson)

If he was 'first on the site' he must have arrived at a similar time to the Finnish helicopters who arrived circa 03:05

OH-HVG (Super Puma)

The stand-by helicopter OH-HVG, taking off at 0230 hrs from Turku and arriving at the scene of the accident at 0305 hrs, began its search in the darkness, using its searchlights to locate people in the water.

This helicopter rescued 35 people in one night, so it is quite feasible Y64/Y74 could rescue an initial large batch. As the day wore on, fewer and fewer survivors were found, due to succumbing to hypothermia. The OH-HVG was one of the few crew to be able to land on the ship deck, together with the crew having had bad weather rescue training.

It took apx one hour to fly from Berga, Stockholm, with an additional 27 minutes to divert to Huddinge, first. So Y64 setting off at 2:00 could well have arrive by 0300.

The JAIC has Y64's first flight - or rather, first mention - at

Y 64 took off from Berga at 0445 hrs, picked up a physician and a nurse from Huddinge Hospital and arrived at the scene of the accident at 0552 hrs.

JAIC 7.5.5.

 

[Vixen]

Your frustration that they don't breathlessly repeat your conspiracy theories is not a cause of concern for anyone else.

When the Wilhelm Gustloff sank, it was not reported in the German press. Does that mean it is a conspiracy theory that it sank?

So do you really believe 'everything is transparent and never covered up?'

How come we never heard about all the Christmas parties at No. 10 last year, or is that also a conspiracy theory, by your own definition?

The fact you couldn't care less about a thing does not mean nobody else should, either.