Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part IV

[Jack by the hedge]

There's this interview in an Estonian newspaper:

An interview in which a man who heard secondhand rumours that Piht survived tells of his discussion with another man who heard secondhand rumours that Piht survived.

The most interesting bit is

... immediately when he came to the police at Turku, the police had only one question: from where did you get the information about Piht? The police at Turku was not interested in anything else.

That's a good question and it's not answered. The police wanted to know where the rumour started; did anyone actually see Piht? Seems like the answer is no.

 

[Mojo]

You said it was "heavily on its starboard side" for a long time. This could provide a clue to narrow down what "floating on its superstructure" means, as "heavily on its starboard side" clearly doesn't count.

By that, I mean its hull side was not touching the surface of the water.

 

[JayUtah]

There are nearly 1,000 corpii delicti.

Yeah, that's not what that phrase means.

 

[Vixen]

Hang on, wasn’t your complaint that once it had reached this point, the Estonia sank too quickly?

Oceanos gradually filled with water over 18 hours which caused it to finally capsize and sink.

The JAIC are claiming that Estonia similarly filled with water but far faster hence the more rapid sinking.

Faster even than the Wilhelm Gustloff - far bigger and with about 5,000 passengers on board - which was tripled torpedoed smashing its hull in three places.

Or the Titanic, which took almost three hours to sink, despite its hull being indented by the iceberg and its bulkheads filling with water, as being too low.

 

[Mojo]

Yeah, that's not what that phrase means.

Hence my allusion to John Haigh, who was similarly mistaken.

 

[GlennB]

I would have thought that New Year's Eve would have been the appropriate time for a compilation of 'Vixen's greatest hits flops', but no.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Swedish investigative journalist Sven Anér found 15 different lists of survivors, now eliminated.

What does "now eliminated" mean here?

That list of lists suggests that the Estonian authorities believed early on that many of these missing were rescued. I wonder if they were able to trace where they got that information in the first place.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

The fact Carl Bildt and his military chief, Emil Svensson declared within hours of the accident that it was the result of the bow visor falling off due to a design fault.

Is this a fringe reset? Are you going back to claiming Bildt said this? Are you going to bring evidence?

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Common sense tells you this cannot be a conclusion at such an early stage

Yes. And?

 

[Reformed Offlian]

There are nearly 1,000 corpii delicti.

That is precisely the contention you have yet to substantiate.

A corpse can be a corpus delicti, but is not presumptively so.

You don't instantly start asking "Cui bono" just because you find a body.

 

[JesseCuster]

'852 Dead' is a pure guess as there were no proper passenger records.

How many of those 852 have not been declared dead because there was no dental records or DNA?

 

[Andy_Ross]

In her book, 'Estonia' Jutta Rabe states: “Reuters also issued a notice on 30 September 1994, which [the notice] has not been revoked. In Estonia, meanwhile, information on Piht had also apparently been received, for Andi Meister said in front of the TV cameras, 'Let those who have hidden Piht know that they will be punished'.

Meister was head of the JAIC at one point and minister of transport in Estonia.

Estonia's Interior Minister did not get the memo from Sweden and Finland, who by 30 Sept 1994, were already reporting:

Helsingin Sanomat

So nothing apart from a newspaper report?

 

[Andy_Ross]

It doesn't necessarily mean they were 'admin staff'. The police in Sweden are not constructed the same way as in the UK, where the intelligence forces are separate from the police force. In Sweden the KSI intelligence services come under the police force. The defence intelligence service is MUST. The latter is military, the former 'civilian'. KSI is extremely secretive and only once has a chief of KSI been named as a member, when the person concerned committed suicide over some kind of scandal about to come out.

So your assuming they were admin staff is simply an assumption on your part based on their working in the 'Administrative Offices' in Sweden and belonging to a union.

So if they were going to meet 'their colleagues in Tallin' they are hardly likely to be 'admin staff'. Maybe some were but it doesn't follow all 68 were.

None of them were secret squirrel ninja spy cops.

 

[Andy_Ross]

There is every indication that the Swedish government at the time knew exactly what happened, how and why. The bow visor falling off is just a half truth to keep the peasants happy.

You have failed to show any evidence to support this.

 

[Andy_Ross]

The point being made is that it did not 'float on its superstructure' for any length of time, despite being stricken for over 18 hours.

It capsized and sank within nine minutes of reaching its point of negative stability, after which point, the inevitable was imminent.

It turned on it's side which increased the flooding rate and it sank. That is also what happened to the Estonia.

Ships do not 'float on their superstructure.
A ship's superstructure is not watertight. A Warship closed down for action comes closest and even then has to have large openings for engine air, air conditioning air and exhausts.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Nope. As those Estonians have seemingly 'disappeared' - including the Chief engineer, Chief navigator, Chief Medical doctor and fourth Officer - how do you prove a negative? Let's face it, these guys were in the same luxury cabins - and better still as officers - as the Voronin family and the old sea captain and his wife. The latter escaped, nul problemo, being on the upper decks and nearby all the rescue equipment. It seems obvious that being in a life boat (as opposed to a life raft) they had an excellent chance of survival. It seems very likely they were picked up by Helicopter Y64 and transferred to Huddinge, with Piht being transferred to Turku for questioning, as advised in an early Finnish quality newspaper, and was interviewed, as per a statement by Bengt Stenmark, some kind of transport and shipping minister. From there, he may have been transferred to Uppsala or Helsinki, with the Swedish intelligence services advising Bildt to cover the whole thing up and have the crew dealt with by a CIA court c/o Clinton.

Of course, the JAIC nor the press can report these guys as dead or explain how they were listed as survivors - with an Interpol Arrest Warrant put out for Piht - and seen or heard by witnesses but are now presumed 'drowned'. This is because when the whole thing is declassified after 70 years, it will become apparent that they were survivors and it won't do for the JAIC and the government to be seen to have been lying. (Although, of course, lying by omission is still lying.) So, come 2064 maybe all will be revealed.


For example, how Helicopter Y64, Kenneth Svensson, hero, did indeed rescue all of the people the early newspapers said he rescued, after leaving Berga shortly after 02:00, and not nearer 05:00, as claimed by the JAIC report (which was probably a second trip).

HS 29.9.1994

We know exactly the movements of Y 64.

Y 64 took off from Berga at 0445 hrs, picked up a physician and a nurse from Huddinge Hospital and arrived at the scene of the accident at 0552 hrs.
The crew noticed that many rafts were searched more than once because there were no markings showing that a raft already had been examined. Therefore the crew proposed by radio that the rescue men should cut up the canopies of searched rafts.
Y 64 began to rescue three people, one in a raft, one lying in the water tied to the raft and one lifeless entangled in the raft's sea anchor. The helicopter winched down its rescue man to the person in the water. Although the winch wire failed, the rescue man managed to raise him. The next to be lifted up was the man in the raft. He was not wearing a lifejacket. He fell into the water just before gaining the helicopter. The rescue man jumped after him and succeeded in grasping him. The winch now failed totally and another helicopter, Y 74, was called upon to rescue them. However, before Y 74 arrived, the person died.
Y 64 brought the survivor to Utö. The medical personnel on board were left to assist the Finnish nursing staff. As requested by the staff, Y 64 transported 20 survivors from Utö to Turku University Central Hospital. After this Y 64 got permission from the OSC to return to Berga to repair the broken winch, and landed there at 1530 hrs

 

[Andy_Ross]

None of these sank.

Because they were lucky, the visor's did not completely detach and the weather was not as rough.

It does establish a pattern though. All the ferries were inadequate in the construction of their bow visors.

 

[Axxman300]

The point being made is that it did not 'float on its superstructure' for any length of time, despite being stricken for over 18 hours.

It capsized and sank within nine minutes of reaching its point of negative stability, after which point, the inevitable was imminent.

And the point is poorly made as the conditions were not equal.

 

[Andy_Ross]

The car deck was 2m above the waterline plus 76mm margin and 5m high (15ft).

Sillaste and Treu told early news reporters they were 'up to their knees in water' in the engine room so the ingression was via Deck 0. And not how these guys within the bowels of the ship managed to escape - survival suits, passports, sorted - yet we are expected to believe the top brass on the luxury decks all popped their clogs. All of them.

So the star witness is an ordinary seaman (seen by a witness sitting in the Admiral Bar at circa 12:45) and the third and fourth engineers plus a newbie, who were in a life raft even whilst Tammes was sending his Mayday, within two shakes of a cat's tail.

Water ingress was through the many openings in the upper deck.

If, as you claim the ship was sealed by watertight compartments, how did water from a hole towards the bow get to the engine room?

Also we know the hole was above the waterline in to the car deck. Any water getting through that hole had to find it's way down in to the hull from above.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Yes, and the Oceanos was twice as fast as the Estonia in that respect.

Because the hull was more completely flooded and the ship was of a different size and construction.