Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part IV

[Vixen]

In my case, her ability to make basic comparisons with the Estonia, and applicable shipwrecks. Just staying in the Ro-Ro class of ships suggests there was a problem with key elements of the design. But instead, we are given examples of the Titanic, and ships being sunk with torpedoes, ships hitting mines in WWII, and even the Kursk.

To properly debate this issue there has to be a case of a Ro-Ro ferry that lost her bow-visor in heavy seas, but didn't sink.

There isn't one.

From HS 5 Oct 1994

Finnish ship designer: "Detaching the bow visor still cannot open the ramp"

Backman Nils-Eric 5.10.1994 2:00 TURKU - Tearing off the visor alone does not cause the watertight bow ramp of the car ferry to open. "The visor attachment is not connected to the bow ramp, and the wave only presses the bow ramp more tightly against the ship's hull, preventing water from entering the car deck," said Martti Skytte, director of Kvärner Masa-Yards' Turku shipyard's ship design office.

Former Wärtsilä, now Masa-Yards is one of the world's leading car ferry and cruise ship builders. Skytte began designing ships at the Wärtsilä shipyard in Turku in 1967. Estonia, the former Viking Sally, was built in Papenburg, Germany. "It was built in the Bureau Veritas category. We have built the visors of the ships to the strictest rating, Norske Veritas," Skytte explains.

He says the bow visor can break in rough seas, but at any point a watertight bow ramp resting on the hull still prevents water from entering the ship. "Provided, of course, that the ramp has been tightly closed. A self-locking ramp may open outwards."

According to video images taken from Estonia, the ramp was almost a meter open at the top. "Then, of course, it has leaked all along its edges."

According to Skyten, it is no longer worthwhile to try to push through the storm on the basis of the bow ramp alone, but the ship is able to search for the nearest shelter in the wind. Estonian contemporaries include Turella and Rosella, built at Wärtsilä in Turku. Skytte was involved in their design as a project engineer: "Their ramps, like other car ferries, were dimensioned to meet the requirements of truck traffic. In the mid-1980s, a tight bulkhead was built on the car deck behind a visor and bow ramp on ships of the next generation, such as Viking Line's Mariella and Olympia.

"Mariella's visor, completed in 1985, was damaged immediately by the storms of the first fall, and the attachment of the twisted visor was strengthened." "Lessons were learned from every experience"

HS

Skytte at this stage being a shipbuilder, must surely know more about this topic than Carl Bildt and Kari Lehtola on Day One.


The JAIC had to invent a whole scenario of the bow visor pulling off the car ramp, yet no-one saw the car ramp open, to come up with the vessel downed like The Herald of Free Enterprise.

Sillaste never saw it open. The two Estonian athletes did not, either.

 

[Vixen]

Wait, you said he was reported as being alive, “and then he wasn’t” in another post.
So there is a list of survivors, then an updated list in which he isn’t listed.

That’s a report that he is not among the survivors, AKA dead.

To be classified as 'dead', a victim needed to be properly identified from DNA or dental records. Simply removing them from a 'survived' list does not equate to their being dead.

Identifying Estonian victims can take weeks

Repo Päivi 4.10.1994 2:00

The identification of the deceased continues in a feverish hurry at the Department of Forensic Medicine of the University of Helsinki. Outsiders are not allowed in. Not even forensic doctors were allowed on the scene on Monday. The identification is carried out in the same way as a standard forensic examination. Some deceased may have to have an autopsy. Police collect information about the deceased both from their lifetime and from the time after their death. Lifetime information is required from the driving license to the blood type, health center folder, dental information and dental maps. In difficult cases, combs and hairbrushes may also be needed to determine and compare the genus of the deceased.

Identification itself is done using a computer. The data on the deceased both before and after the death are entered into the computer. The computer compares the data.

"If the deceased has a passport in his pocket, and the deceased looks similar to the person in the passport photo, it is not enough to identify him. Identifying the victim goes much further and deeper," describes Kaj Engström, a spokesman for the Central Criminal Police Identification Unit. The police want to be absolutely sure that everyone identified is really who they are thought to be.

HS 4.10.1994

So, just as being listed as a survivor needed proper verification so would being listed as 'dead', instead.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

In her book, 'Estonia' Jutta Rabe states: “Reuters also issued a notice on 30 September 1994, which [the notice] has not been revoked. In Estonia, meanwhile, information on Piht had also apparently been received, for Andi Meister said in front of the TV cameras, 'Let those who have hidden Piht know that they will be punished'.

Meister was head of the JAIC at one point and minister of transport in Estonia.

Estonia's Interior Minister did not get the memo from Sweden and Finland, who by 30 Sept 1994, were already reporting:

Interior Minister Arike said 136 people had been rescued from the ship. He didn't want to give out the list of names because he wasn't sure it was right. However, there was a list of 149 rescued names on the wall of the port of Tallinn. According to Finnish authorities, 140 people were rescued from the ship.

Helsingin Sanomat

Looks like a longhand way to say "no, I have no reference for my claim that the Finnish authorities think those 9 have been disappeared".

But I am curious to know what "Reuters issued a notice" means. Can you explain?

All you appear to have is stuff like reports of remarks seemingly made by people who heard rumours Piht might have survived. Can you show us any eyewitness evidence that any of your "disappeared" were actually rescued?

 

[Jack by the hedge]

It doesn't necessarily mean they were 'admin staff'. The police in Sweden are not constructed the same way as in the UK, where the intelligence forces are separate from the police force. In Sweden the KSI intelligence services come under the police force. The defence intelligence service is MUST. The latter is military, the former 'civilian'. KSI is extremely secretive and only once has a chief of KSI been named as a member, when the person concerned committed suicide over some kind of scandal about to come out.

So your assuming they were admin staff is simply an assumption on your part based on their working in the 'Administrative Offices' in Sweden and belonging to a union.

So if they were going to meet 'their colleagues in Tallin' they are hardly likely to be 'admin staff'. Maybe some were but it doesn't follow all 68 were.

You appear to have an odd notion that some people here (or perhaps even you yourself, I can't tell) think admin staff are some kind of second class of person. Why is it inconceivable that police employees other than police officers could meet their counterparts in Tallin? Do you suppose such people were not allowed out without a grown up to accompany them?

And for the umpteenth time your own source calls them civilian employees which is a perfectly simple and comprehensible way to describe such staff.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

There is every indication that the Swedish government at the time knew exactly what happened, how and why.

If you wish to claim that the Swedish government had prior knowledge of what happened before they could innocently have known it, it would be interesting to see what your "every indication" consists of. So far it's just obfuscation and innuendo. If you have facts, please bring them.

 

[Vixen]

Looks like a longhand way to say "no, I have no reference for my claim that the Finnish authorities think those 9 have been disappeared".

But I am curious to know what "Reuters issued a notice" means. Can you explain?

All you appear to have is stuff like reports of remarks seemingly made by people who heard rumours Piht might have survived. Can you show us any eyewitness evidence that any of your "disappeared" were actually rescued?

There's this interview in an Estonian newspaper:

The Owners of the 'Estonia' can hide Captain Piht (Eesti Päevaleht 990917)
Enno Tammer (T) talks to captain Erich Moik (M)

<snip>

(M) Yes! I have once told Andi Meister that the repair manager at the shipyard at Turku, Eric Mörd, admitted to me that Piht had been rescued. Mörd and I were together on the bridge (on the 'Diana 2' at Rostock the morning of the accident). I knew that Piht was on the list of rescued persons. Mörd told me that his wife was a doctor, that she had been awoken at the night and that she saw that Piht had been rescued, that Piht was put in a car and driven somewhere. She thought it was to Helsinki. Also, not only Mörd told me, but another person. The other person was called to the police at Turku. His wife was working on the 'Estonia' so he thought it concerned identification or so. But immediately when he came to the police at Turku, the police had only one question: from where did you get the information about Piht? The police at Turku was not interested in anything else. So there were two persons hearing Mr Mörd saying that Piht had been rescued.

(T) But Mr Mörd?

(M) He came aboard the ship (the 'Diana 2') at Turku three weeks later, he was slimmer and ... looked different. I took him aside and asked: Where is captain Piht? He: I do not know. I: But you said ... He: No, I have never said anything. He denied everything.

(T) You were at Rostock the day the 'Estonia' had sunk and your crewmembers saw Piht on (German) TV.

(M) Yes, and I believe them. It is impossible that they saw wrong. They followed the news very carefully as two crew members had their wives on the 'Estonia' and two others had good friends and colleagues on the 'Estonia'. They could not possibly have seen wrong, they knew captain Piht very well.


<snip>

(T) What was the purpose of the owners of the 'Estonia' - to collect the insurance?

(M) It is a big amount. If the underwriters had known that the condition of the ship was not good, then the money would not have been paid ...

(T) If your assumption is correct, it is an international crime. And apart from Piht and Leiger there is a suspicion that another six persons were saved.

(M) The others I cannot connect to Piht and Leiger.

(T) Your assumption means a very clever kidnapping.

(M) ... It is very simple to see if Leigar was rescued ... look in his cabin ...
...

Moik was sacked from Estline for giving this interview.

Swedish investigative journalist Sven Anér found 15 different lists of survivors, now eliminated.

List 1. Date 29.9.1994 kl 0600. List received from Baltic News Service, BNS. The attached page names: Tiina Müür, Avo Piht, Ago Tomingas, Hannely Veide, Hannika Veide

List 2. The list of Estline, received from Radio Kuku at Tallinn. No certain date. The attached page names: Avo Piht, Ago Tomingas.

List 3. Send by the Estonian Ministry of the Interior on 28.9.1994 at 17.22 hrs to Radio Kuku. The attached pages names: Ulo Kikas, Tiit Meos, Tiina Müür, Avo Piht, Anne Veide.

List 4. Received from BNS that calls it the 'Final list", date 30.9.1994 at 16.42 hrs. The attached page names: Lembit Leiger.

List 5. Received from av BNS. The list of the Estonian Ministry of the Interior dated 29.9.1994 at 17.59 hrs. The attached page names: Avo Piht.

List 6. Sent from the Swedish embassy at 28-29.9.1994 to the Swedish Foreign office, UD. The list is based on the reports of the police at Turku, Finland, to the Swedish police; see also lists nos. 14 and 15 below. The attached pages names: Lembit Leiger, Tiit Meos.

List 7. Received from BNS. It is the list of the Estonian government crisis commission dated 30.9.1994. The attached pages names:Lembit Leiger.

List 8. Received from BNS. Date 5.10.1994. Officiall Estonian list. The attached pages names Lembit Leiger, marked with an "j" = rescued.

List 9. From the Estonian Ministry of the Interior, date 5.10.1994. The attached page names: Lembit Leiger, marked with an "j" = rescued.

List 10. This list has been kept by the Swedish national police since 28.9.1994. On it is marked when and how often Estonian citizens were inquired about by the Swedish police. For Lembit Leiger 5 markes = yes, found.

List 11. From BNS, one of their first lists, dated 28.9.1994 at 13.25 hrs, with heading: "The first rescued persons known are:" The attached page (only one page) names: Avo Piht, Tiina Müür, Kalev Vahtras.

List 12. Possibly the absolute earliest list, dated 28.9.94 at 11.50 hrs. Sent from the Finnish embassy at Tallinn to the Port Authority at Tallinn and then to Radio Kuku at Tallinn. Handwritten are twelve names, among them: Tiina Müür, Kalev Vahtras, Avo Piht.

List 13. From the Finnish police to the Estonian crisis commission, probably a very early list. One page - none of the above 11 supposed survivors are listed.

List 14. This list, 3 pages, has been made by the police at Turku, Finland; date/reference "28.9.1994, kello 22.00", which sent it by fax to the Swedish national police, which in turn sent it to the Swedish embassy at Tallinn, which received the list with additional names had written on it. There are eight names hand written on the page: Lembit Leiger, Tiit Meos, Tiina Müür, Avo Piht, Ago Tomingas, Kalev Vahtras, Hannely Veide, Hanka Veide.

List 15. Page 3 of the previous document, list 14. The handwritten, difficult to read, names that can be read in a mirror, are not fully identical with the handwritten names on the right page of list 14. However the name "Piht, Avo" is very clear. The page is stamped by of official stamp of the Turku police and counter signed Veikko Koiranen, rikoskomisurie.

Note: Vahtras was found washed up on a shore and his body returned to his family, who claim his corpse shows signs of violence/having been beaten up.
There is a death certificate for him. Linde claims he was a survivor, sharing a hospital room with him, when he vanished. (Not sure if he is a reliable witness, though.)

 

[Jack by the hedge]

The point being made is that it did not 'float on its superstructure' for any length of time, despite being stricken for over 18 hours.

You said it was "heavily on its starboard side" for a long time. This could provide a clue to narrow down what "floating on its superstructure" means, as "heavily on its starboard side" clearly doesn't count.

 

[Mojo]

I will not be going through my archives to satisfy your frivolous request.

My area of research area of interest in WWII was the Continuation War, not Stalingrad or the reports from the German frontline re 'Tommy'. Those news items were a fascinating distraction, which I just happened to notice.

No evidence that the story existed then.

 

[JesseCuster]

It doesn't necessarily mean they were 'admin staff'. The police in Sweden are not constructed the same way as in the UK, where the intelligence forces are separate from the police force. In Sweden the KSI intelligence services come under the police force. The defence intelligence service is MUST. The latter is military, the former 'civilian'. KSI is extremely secretive and only once has a chief of KSI been named as a member, when the person concerned committed suicide over some kind of scandal about to come out.

So your assuming they were admin staff is simply an assumption on your part based on their working in the 'Administrative Offices' in Sweden and belonging to a union.

So if they were going to meet 'their colleagues in Tallin' they are hardly likely to be 'admin staff'. Maybe some were but it doesn't follow all 68 were.

If they were police officers or intelligence service members, why can't you or anyone else find evidence that says that's what they were? All anyone can find are sources that describe them as civilian employees of the Stockholm police who were members of a civil service union.

All you've got is "well, maybe they were intelligence service officers, even though there's no actual evidence that says they were and evidence to suggest they weren't..."

Haven't you got anything better than that?

You're all about sticking to recorded facts when it suits you and relying on pure speculation when it suits you...

 

[zooterkin]

It doesn't necessarily mean they were 'admin staff'. The police in Sweden are not constructed the same way as in the UK, where the intelligence forces are separate from the police force. In Sweden the KSI intelligence services come under the police force. The defence intelligence service is MUST. The latter is military, the former 'civilian'. KSI is extremely secretive and only once has a chief of KSI been named as a member, when the person concerned committed suicide over some kind of scandal about to come out.

And what does that have to do with the people working in the Administrative Offices of the police in Sweden? You seem to put much store in contemporaneous media reports. How about this one?

Police said among those aboard the Estonia when it sank were 66 civilians connected with the Stockholm police department. Authorities did not say whether any of the civilian police employees were among the survivors.

So your assuming they were admin staff is simply an assumption on your part based on their working in the 'Administrative Offices' in Sweden and belonging to a union.

No, that's just part of it. Also there are reports explicitly referring to them as civilian police employees (see above).

So if they were going to meet 'their colleagues in Tallin' they are hardly likely to be 'admin staff'. Maybe some were but it doesn't follow all 68 were.

Why ever not? And I'm guessing they didn't take the trip in order to meet those colleagues, which is the implication of your wording, but since they were in Tallinn, as a result of that being where the Estonia took them, they took the opportunity to meet.

 

[Vixen]

You appear to have an odd notion that some people here (or perhaps even you yourself, I can't tell) think admin staff are some kind of second class of person. Why is it inconceivable that police employees other than police officers could meet their counterparts in Tallin? Do you suppose such people were not allowed out without a grown up to accompany them?

And for the umpteenth time your own source calls them civilian employees which is a perfectly simple and comprehensible way to describe such staff.

Not at all. It is the same knee jerk reaction as the one in which the EPIRB's were claimed to be 'manually operated only' despite confirmation from news reports and the expert hired by the JAIC that they automatically activated and HRU-triggered EPIRB's. Just someone's auto-contrary opinion, not fact. An assumption, in other words.

 

[JesseCuster]

To be classified as 'dead', a victim needed to be properly identified from DNA or dental records.

Either they got DNA or dental records from 852 victims of the Estonia or they're not actually classified as dead?

 

[Jack by the hedge]

...
The Estonian government officially believes that those nine Estonians listed as survivors have been disappeared by Sweden.

Cool, then they issued a public statement to this fact, and then Sweden has responded to the accusation. Please post links to those.

Nope. As those Estonians have seemingly 'disappeared' - including the Chief engineer, Chief navigator, Chief Medical doctor and fourth Officer - how do you prove a negative?

Prove a negative? Nobody is asking the Estonians to prove anything. The question is can you prove your claim that "The Estonian government officially believes that those nine Estonians listed as survivors have been disappeared by Sweden" and the answer appears to be a straightforward "Nope".

I might add that you've yet to substantiate whether those "listed" as survivors are on any list you can show us.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

None of these sank.

Until one did.

What's your point? That none of them could have sunk? That's untrue.

 

[Mojo]

The point being made is that it did not 'float on its superstructure' for any length of time, despite being stricken for over 18 hours.

It capsized and sank within nine minutes of reaching its point of negative stability, after which point, the inevitable was imminent.

Hang on, wasn’t your complaint that once it had reached this point, the Estonia sank too quickly?

 

[Vixen]

If you wish to claim that the Swedish government had prior knowledge of what happened before they could innocently have known it, it would be interesting to see what your "every indication" consists of. So far it's just obfuscation and innuendo. If you have facts, please bring them.

The fact Carl Bildt and his military chief, Emil Svensson declared within hours of the accident that it was the result of the bow visor falling off due to a design fault.

Common sense tells you this cannot be a conclusion at such an early stage, with ALL of the senior officers unaccounted for and just the fourth engineer's word - who found himself on a raft with early escapees, Treu, Linde, and the newbie, survival-suited - booted and passport in pocket - even before the mayday was received.

 

[Vixen]

You said it was "heavily on its starboard side" for a long time. This could provide a clue to narrow down what "floating on its superstructure" means, as "heavily on its starboard side" clearly doesn't count.

By that, I mean its hull side was not touching the surface of the water.


In the JAIC scenario, it was, because it needed an explanation of how water got into the superstructure so it dreamt up an idea that it floated on it side literally whilst the windows smashed, and at last the ingress of water sufficient to sink it, failing to understand that its point of negative stability was way past.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

There are nearly 1,000 corpii delicti.

I hope that was a joke. Lots of corpora, but a bit lacking on the delicti part.

 

[Vixen]

Either they got DNA or dental records from 852 victims of the Estonia or they're not actually classified as dead?

'852 Dead' is a pure guess as there were no proper passenger records. For example, staff or crew taking along friends, as was habitual, truck drivers, young children, coach parties - for example there were two coach loads of tourists but only the names of the coach drivers listed, some people didn't use the 'return portion' of their ticket, people survived who were not on any passenger list.

The number of passengers may never be known
JROTKO Assistant 29.9.1994 2:00

Estonia's exact number of passengers at the time of the accident is unlikely to ever be clear, as the passenger list is full of deficiencies. Throughout the day, Estline's office in Tallinn tried to find out the passenger list, but without results. Estonian radio even appealed to people with certain knowledge of someone boarding a ship. Two buses of Estonian tourists were only listed on the passenger list with the names of the tour managers. No children travelling with their parents were recorded at all, and no one knows how many children there were. All we know is that there were children on board. Lorry drivers and the number of Estonian free-passers were also not recorded. On the other hand, an Estonian person was found among those rescued, who according to the papers was not supposed to be at all at Estonia.

The reported number of passengers increased during the day. By tonight, about 100 passengers had been found out who were not on the passenger list. The number may be even higher. In the evening, the authorities released a list that said the names of the 76 rescued would be known. However, the data proved incomplete during the evening.

(HS) 29.9.1994

It is important to remember that to be listed as a survivor you had to prove your identity.

 

[Vixen]

Until one did.

What's your point? That none of them could have sunk? That's untrue.

The Day One announcement it was just like the Herald of Free Enterprise is what is obviously bunkum, here.