Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part IV

[LondonJohn]

Considering the number of different groups who were trying to sink it, it’s amazing the the Estonia even got out of port.*


*Perhaps it evaded them by going upwards at a angle of 45 degrees.

Duh ships like the Estonia can't climb hills!!!

(They have to be pulled up the hills by a flotilla of tugs)

 

[Mojo]

Indeed. What Egypt did with the men once Sweden had returned them is an entirely separate matter.

Vixen, it would appear, either a) is intellectually incapable of understanding this distinction, or b) is capable of understanding this distinction, and is therefore exhibiting intellectual dishonesty in continuing with the "Sweden disappeared these men" nonsense.

It’s astounding that Vixen has now accused someone else of having “no idea as to the difference between deportation and disappearance”.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

Or...... you just made that breathless crap up out of whole cloth, without a single shred of (reliable, credible) supporting evidence, and in the face of a perfectly well-understood cause of this disaster which is entirely borne out by all of the evidence.

You do realise that, 99.5% of the time at least, real life is absolutely nothing like the sort of fiction you obviously consume on TV/film/books etc? You do realise that James Bond was a grossly exaggerated figment of Fleming's imagination, and that MI6 field operatives and handlers - even in the height of the cold war - primarily did unexciting desk jobs and surveillance work (and even the ones who ran sources did nothing more important that conduct dead drops and so on)? You do realise that TV "thrillers" such as Line of Duty are a gigantically unrealistic representation?

And you do realise that the Estonia sank because - and only because - its improperly-designed/constructed/maintained bow visor failed in rough seas, leading to huge masses of water entering the ship, which reduced its buoyancy and destabilised it so much that it capsized onto its starboard beam, which in turn caused sufficient additional water ingress as to sink the ship? You do realise that, don't you Vixen?

Vixen's imagination would shame even the writers of the Bond movies (well, maybe not whoever wrote Moonraker).

 

[Mojo]

Duh ships like the Estonia can't climb hills!!!

(They have to be pulled up the hills by a flotilla of tugs)

I thought they were pulled by teams of wheeled submarines.

 

[Vixen]

I thought it was lorry loads of stuff guarded by US Marines?

Now we are down to a Volvo?

What evidence do you have that the Volvo contained any dangerous goods or chemicals?

The Swedish Customs Officer whistle blower, himself, reported electronic gear.

Normally, Swedish customs searched every vehicle coming from Estonia. That a vehicle was to pass without inspection was something Henriksson had never seen in 38 years of service.

When the ferry arrived on Sept. 14, 1994, Henriksson spoke to the driver of the expected vehicle, a Volvo 745 station wagon driven by a Frank Larsson, a false identity. When Henriksson told "Larsson" that customs was carrying out inspections, he "Gave me a look, but I said the search would be faked," Henriksson said. "We opened a few boxes and as far as I could see it was military electronics in them."

The customs slip showed the car belonging to a non-existent company called Ericsson Access AB, a fictitious subsidiary of AB LM Ericsson Finance. No address was given. Henriksson discovered later that the vehicle was a rental car. There is no evidence that Ericsson was actually involved in the smuggling. Although the Swedish military authorized the smuggling, the final destination of the Soviet technology is not known.

A week later, on September 20, 1994, a much larger shipment of contraband technology arrived and was allowed to pass without inspection. This time it was a van and, once again, Henriksson merely glanced into the boxes.

"What were you thinking this second time?" reporter Lars Borgnäs asked.

"I thought it was a strange procedure," Henriksson said. "But orders are orders and you don't reflect too much on why."

Pre-registered and assigned registration number was: 20 September 1991, Registered for traffic in Sweden: 01 October 1991, New user: 27 December 1996.

(The white Volvo owner with registration number KUH 914 model year 1992 which is discontinued.) The first owner owned on December 27, 1996 and the second change of ownership was a company in Solna - (2011-7-20) third was a private person from Tibro (2011-08 -02)

Bearing in mind the strict rules that all vehicles had to have a registered owner, and a group of young Estonians were turned away because they didn't realise the car they wanted to board was a company car and they needed to show the car owner's written permission and the EU edict together with previous rules, it illustrates how far Sweden was prepared to break the law to satisfy Clinton's demands. And of course, in the KSI, it is legal to break the law in the course of espionage, so that would be the rationale.

 

[Mojo]

Bearing in mind the strict rules that all vehicles had to have a registered owner, and a group of young Estonians were turned away because they didn't realise the car they wanted to board was a company car and they needed to show the car owner's written permission and the EU edict together with previous rules, it illustrates how far Sweden was prepared to break the law to satisfy Clinton's demands.

What demands?

 

[Vixen]

That's not what being disappeared means.

Being disappeared means you don't come back and/or the state refuses to acknowledge where you are. See: Forced Disappearance.

(Bolding mine)

Thank you. So if that was the case with the missing Estonian crew and staff you admit that would be an illicit act?

 

[Mojo]

Thank you. So if that was the case with the missing Estonian crew and staff you admit that would be an illicit act?

Are you claiming that it must have happened because it was illegal?

 

[Vixen]

What does this mean?

He was a third or fourth engineer on the Estonia who claims to have been fixing a passengers toilets at the time, but somehow ended up in the Engine Control Room, having to enter and shut security-devised watertight doors to get there, in order to witness water coming in at the sides of the ramp on the ECR monitor (which was also viewable on the bridge). An early Swedish newspaper has him saying that he, Treu and the newbie chap were, 'Up to our knees in water'.

As Sillaste claims he looked at his monitor after the first series of 'two heavy bangs' - although he doesn't say whether it is one minute or ten minutes later - then the fact they were 'up to their knees in water' suggests the three were desperately operating the bilge pumps because the water was flooding in through the lower hull.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

Thank you. So if that was the case with the missing Estonian crew and staff you admit that would be an illicit act?

I'm genuinely not sure what you mean. Are you asking me that if the Estonia crew and staff were murdered by the state and the state denied all responsibility would it be a forced disappearance?

If so then the answer is no. Even in this scenario they were not "disappeared" they were killed in the sinking. If they had been taken clandestinely from the ship before it sank and killed elsewhere and the government denied all knowledge then yes, that would be a forced disappearance.

 

[Vixen]

No, it doesn't suggest that.

Let's face it. The early Italians who are credited with inventing criminology had a simple formula for pinpointing the culprit:

"Cui bono?"


Who would benefit from claiming, 'No-one is to blame?' ('It is 'just a design fault.')


"Cui bono?"


With 500 Swedes including 63 civilian police wiped out, you would think they would be chomping at the bit to bring whomever was responsible to justice.


Unless... ah.

 

[JesseCuster]

I thought it was terrorists sinking the ship to kill the police officers?

I thought a British escort submarine crashed into the Estonia and sank it

 

[Vixen]

What demands?

To smuggle former Soviet Union military and space electronics and equipment to the west.

The President at the time, Bill Clinton, was eager to appear as 'Middle East Peacemaker' extraordinaire. Plus, the CIA, together with MI6 and KSI/MUST were helping Estonia cut ties from the KGB/GRU in helping it to build up its own intelligence forces.

 

[Andy_Ross]

He was a third or fourth engineer on the Estonia who claims to have been fixing a passengers toilets at the time, but somehow ended up in the Engine Control Room, having to enter and shut security-devised watertight doors to get there, in order to witness water coming in at the sides of the ramp on the ECR monitor (which was also viewable on the bridge). An early Swedish newspaper has him saying that he, Treu and the newbie chap were, 'Up to our knees in water'.

As Sillaste claims he looked at his monitor after the first series of 'two heavy bangs' - although he doesn't say whether it is one minute or ten minutes later - then the fact they were 'up to their knees in water' suggests the three were desperately operating the bilge pumps because the water was flooding in through the lower hull.

He was working on the domestic systems in the machinery spaces. He was not in a cabin fixing a toilet.

What are 'security devised' watertight doors?

Why is it strange that an engineer on watch would be in the control room which is part of the machinery space where he was working

We know where the water in the engine room was coming from, through all the openings for air and access.

 

[Vixen]

I'm genuinely not sure what you mean. Are you asking me that if the Estonia crew and staff were murdered by the state and the state denied all responsibility would it be a forced disappearance?

If so then the answer is no. Even in this scenario they were not "disappeared" they were killed in the sinking. If they had been taken clandestinely from the ship before it sank and killed elsewhere and the government denied all knowledge then yes, that would be a forced disappearance.

...Or imprisoned. They might still be alive even.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

I'm sorry, are you back to claiming that the west wanted outdated ex Soviet technology without any basis again?

 

[Here_to_learn]

Let's face it. The early Italians who are credited with inventing criminology had a simple formula for pinpointing the culprit:



"Cui bono?"





Who would benefit from claiming, 'No-one is to blame?' ('It is 'just a design fault.')





"Cui bono?"





With 500 Swedes including 63 civilian police wiped out, you would think they would be chomping at the bit to bring whomever was responsible to justice.





Unless... ah.

This is quite interesting actually. I do agree with the idea that given the of dead and especially given how many were from the Swedish police, the work of looking for culprits were sure to be through.

The difference comes when its time for the conclusion. I believe that they did the best job they could, and when the conclusion was that the persons that could be put on trial already were dead,that was sincere.

You instead say seems to think that some sinister conspiracy involving the police in three countries, the prosecution authority, JAIC, the government and of course Carl Bildt mean that the investigation cannot be trusted. I just can't get why you think that so many dead employees of the Swedish police force is an argument for the conspiracy.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

...Or imprisoned. They might still be alive even.

IF that is the case, and only IF, then yes, being abducted from the Estonia and killed or imprisoned would indeed be a forced disappearance. So what? Is this what happened?

 

[Mojo]

To smuggle former Soviet Union military and space electronics and equipment to the west.

The President at the time, Bill Clinton, was eager to appear as 'Middle East Peacemaker' extraordinaire. Plus, the CIA, together with MI6 and KSI/MUST were helping Estonia cut ties from the KGB/GRU in helping it to build up its own intelligence forces.

He thought that smuggling military equipment would make him look like a “'Middle East Peacemaker' extraordinaire”?

Leaving aside the bizarre reasoning, do you have any evidence that these demands were ever made?

 

[Vixen]

He was working on the domestic systems in the machinery spaces. He was not in a cabin fixing a toilet.

What are 'security devised' watertight doors?

Why is it strange that an engineer on watch would be in the control room which is part of the machinery space where he was working

I didn't say he was 'in a cabin' he was fixing the public toilets in the hull deck Deck 0. Where the swimming pool and sauna were.


The lower spaces were watertight. However, to access the engine room, doors had to be opened. So a light would come on and the same signal would be seen on the bridge, that the door had been opened and then properly shut, afterwards.

Estonia had fifteen watertight bulkheads. This ensured its buoyancy.

Why would Sillaste make his way to the Engine Room if he was fixing the passengers toilets (at one in the morning?) unless he could see there was an emergency, such as water on the floor?