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Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part IV

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Vixen said:
Oh yes, I forgot. He spoke to Henrik Sillaste: Naval Architect, Sea Captain and expert in mechanical engineering, who, knowing the bow visor was a bum design, nonetheless failed to report it at the time and was happy to sail in the Estonia. _NOT!


Weee-eeeeeelllll!
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Regardless of whether Sillaste had any credibility, this still refutes the idea that Bildt must have made up the story himself; it suggests that he got it from somebody who was there, even if we posit that that somebody was talking nonsense.
 
Vixen said:
It is a known fact that Alexander Voronin, whose attaché case it was that the divers recovered in Captain Piht's cabin was an ardent Zionist (and why not, as he was a Russian Jew) plus he was a known arms trader.

Jutta Rabe claims to have evidence that the CIA-ordered illicit cargo was intended for Israel.

The Swedish government admitted it smuggled Russian state secrets as cargo on the Estonia during September 1994, despite an EU Law coming into effect 1 Septemberr 1994 re the transport of dangerous goods and chemicals needing a special VAKS licence.

The Swedish customs official who blew the whistle said the aforementioned cargo he was ordered to 'wave through unexamined' was in a hired white Volvo from Ericssons and the car driver never identified.
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I thought it was lorry loads of stuff guarded by US Marines?

Now we are down to a Volvo?

What evidence do you have that the Volvo contained any dangerous goods or chemicals?
 
Reformed Offlian said:
Regardless of whether Sillaste had any credibility, this still refutes the idea that Bildt must have made up the story himself; it suggests that he got it from somebody who was there, even if we posit that that somebody was talking nonsense.
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Which we know he wasn't. It is now known that the bow visor came off and the ship flooded.
 
Vixen said:
How would Bildt and Svensson know 'it was a design fault of the bow visor' before (a) the ship had even been located and (b) the bow visor even proven to have fallen off or (c) even located, as of the day of the accident?

Henrik Sillaste would not be privy to the design specifications of the shipyard, Meyer-Werft.

Carl Bildt: "Move along, please! Nothing to see here! Nobody is to blame! It is just a little design fault in the bow visor with the locking system, which we will prove to you in our official accident report! NOW MOVE ALONG! NOTHING TO SEE HERE!!!"
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Oh bloody hell. Pathetic.

They suspected (not "knew") the ship sank because its bow visor had detached because..... 1) from day one there was reliable witness testimony that the bow visor had become detached, 2) from day one there was reliable witness testimony that water was flooding into the vehicle deck round the sides of the now dislodged and broken bow ramp, and 3) people who know a huge amount more about how ships sink that you could ever hope to know... knew well that those two failures were easily the front-runner as the cause of the sinking.

You don't know what you're talking about. It's embarrassing to have to keep hearing your crap. Maybe go away and actually a) study the whole subject properly, b) learn how to assess and analyse evidence properly, and c) use these new-found skills to conduct an honest and objective analysis of the sinking of the Estonia. Because currently, your posts are clueless, hopelessly intellectually dishonest, improperly sourced, improperly influenced by malign idiots, and flat-out wrong. And you have shown up to now no capacity whatsoever for learning, or for modifying/re-assessing your beliefs in the face of better information or guidance from people who know a humungous amount more about the subject than you. Pitiful, Vixen. Pitiful.
 
Vixen said:
For someone who claims to have actually made a special study of a region that is actually outside of his own shores - unlike most Brits or Americans who are only interested in 'Home News - I am shocked that:
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Oh good, faux indignation.
Vixen said:
[*]you have never heard of the Rome Treaty 1998 in Criminal Law
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Where did I say that? I know what treaty you're talking about, I even gave it the correct name which you have repeatedly failed to do. You've also clearly never read it. I've just been marvelling at your continued incorrect references to it and your apparent ignorance about what it was and why it was enacted.
Vixen said:
[*]you have no idea as to the difference between deportation and disappearance
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In order to disappear someone they have to, you know, disappear. They were deported illegally, certainly, but they were not disappeared. They were sent back to Egypt. What Egypt did with them after this is irrelevant to the Swedish illegal deportation.
Vixen said:
[*]you make the assumption that the USA is a natural sovereign state of Sweden and thus can order them about
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Where have I claimed this? Quote me saying this or retract the accusation.
Vixen said:
[*]If someone is 'disappeared' it must mean their application as an asylum seeker was denied.
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This is just gibberish. They were not disappeared. As much as you can throw a temper tantrum about it, words mean something. To be disappeared you have to, you know, disappear. They did not. They were sent back to Egypt.
Vixen said:
[*]you angrily accuse anyone trying to correct you as to the true facts of calling you a racist
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How am I meant to read "Or is it only OK if that person is a certain demographic?" as anything but a thinly veiled accusation of racism? You certainly seem to be saying that I'm ok with people of "a certain demographic" being disappeared.


Vixen said:
Shame on you, 'Mark Corrigan', shame on you.
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Fake appeal to emotional consequences. There's only one person in this thread who should be ashamed of themselves Vixen and it isn't me.
Vixen said:
Are you SURE you studied Eastern Europe and the KGB...? Then you would be more familiar with the various political alliances and current issues of the day surrounding the Estonia 'accident'.
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1. Yes, my degree in International Relations does back that up rather.

2. I love that you are claiming to not be taking a side and only reporting the facts, and yet you put accident in scare quotes because you're obviously a conspiracy theorist who refuses to accept the conclusions of the JAIC report because you want life to be a poorly written spy novel. Hilarious.
 
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Vixen said:
We know that now but as of the time, the men's own lawyers, families and friends HAD NO IDEA WHERE THEY WERE. They had literally disappeared in broad daylight.
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That's not what being disappeared means.

Being disappeared means you don't come back and/or the state refuses to acknowledge where you are. See: Forced Disappearance.

A forced disappearance (or enforced disappearance) is the secret abduction or imprisonment of a person by a state or political organization, or by a third party with the authorization, support, or acquiescence of a state or political organization, followed by a refusal to acknowledge the person's fate and whereabouts, with the intent of placing the victim outside the protection of the law.
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(Bolding mine)
 
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MarkCorrigan said:
They didn't disappear them. They went back to Egypt. That's not being disappeared.
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Indeed. What Egypt did with the men once Sweden had returned them is an entirely separate matter.

Vixen, it would appear, either a) is intellectually incapable of understanding this distinction, or b) is capable of understanding this distinction, and is therefore exhibiting intellectual dishonesty in continuing with the "Sweden disappeared these men" nonsense.
 
Reformed Offlian said:
Regardless of whether Sillaste had any credibility, this still refutes the idea that Bildt must have made up the story himself; it suggests that he got it from somebody who was there, even if we posit that that somebody was talking nonsense.
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...or he was 'advised' by his defence forces intelligence to cover the whole thing up as they wanted the whole thing 'classified', probably due to the cargo - they themselves had ordered on behalf of the CIA!
 
Vixen said:
It is a known fact that Alexander Voronin, whose attaché case it was that the divers recovered in Captain Piht's cabin was an ardent Zionist (and why not, as he was a Russian Jew) plus he was a known arms trader.

Jutta Rabe claims to have evidence that the CIA-ordered illicit cargo was intended for Israel.

The Swedish government admitted it smuggled Russian state secrets as cargo on the Estonia during September 1994, despite an EU Law coming into effect 1 Septemberr 1994 re the transport of dangerous goods and chemicals needing a special VAKS licence.

The Swedish customs official who blew the whistle said the aforementioned cargo he was ordered to 'wave through unexamined' was in a hired white Volvo from Ericssons and the car driver never identified.
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Yay! Back with the "Zionism" stuff already!!

:rolleyes:
 
Vixen said:
...or he was 'advised' by his defence forces intelligence to cover the whole thing up as they wanted the whole thing 'classified', probably due to the cargo - they themselves had ordered on behalf of the CIA!
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You're literally delusional if you think that real life works like a poundland spy novel. This is not how spies operate, it's far too obvious and this is referring to an area of world history that includes attempting to assassinate someone with an exploding cigar.
 
Captain_Swoop said:
Well at least it gets the Russians off the hook for the sinking.
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Considering the number of different groups who were trying to sink it, it’s amazing the the Estonia even got out of port.*


*Perhaps it evaded them by going upwards at a angle of 45 degrees.
 
Vixen said:
...or he was 'advised' by his defence forces intelligence to cover the whole thing up as they wanted the whole thing 'classified', probably due to the cargo - they themselves had ordered on behalf of the CIA!
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Or...... you just made that breathless crap up out of whole cloth, without a single shred of (reliable, credible) supporting evidence, and in the face of a perfectly well-understood cause of this disaster which is entirely borne out by all of the evidence.

You do realise that, 99.5% of the time at least, real life is absolutely nothing like the sort of fiction you obviously consume on TV/film/books etc? You do realise that James Bond was a grossly exaggerated figment of Fleming's imagination, and that MI6 field operatives and handlers - even in the height of the cold war - primarily did unexciting desk jobs and surveillance work (and even the ones who ran sources did nothing more important that conduct dead drops and so on)? You do realise that TV "thrillers" such as Line of Duty are a gigantically unrealistic representation?

And you do realise that the Estonia sank because - and only because - its improperly-designed/constructed/maintained bow visor failed in rough seas, leading to huge masses of water entering the ship, which reduced its buoyancy and destabilised it so much that it capsized onto its starboard beam, which in turn caused sufficient additional water ingress as to sink the ship? You do realise that, don't you Vixen?
 
Vixen said:
...or he was 'advised' by his defence forces intelligence to cover the whole thing up as they wanted the whole thing 'classified', probably due to the cargo - they themselves had ordered on behalf of the CIA!
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I thought it was terrorists sinking the ship to kill the police officers?
 
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