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Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part IV

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I see, so people who belong to a police union cannot possibly be police themselves.

If people employed by the police department are represented by two unions, one composed of sworn peace officers and the other composed of non-sworn administrative workers, then you must be clear on which union some particular person belongs to before you characterize him as a police officer based on that membership.
 
You said that their mere presence on the ship was "grounds for suspicion of sabotage". How is that not suggesting they were doing something clandestine?



What is it to say, then? Why did you bring it up?


There are plenty of people who think there is a connection, as the RITS (police air and sea search departments) had practised a mock bomb threat on the Estonia in Feb 1994, which happened half way through its journey.
 
I see, so people who belong to a police union cannot possibly be police themselves.

Got it.

How on earth do you get that nonsense from what you're quoting? You're deliberately attempting to shove words into people's mouths again aren't you? Why are you lying about what people say Vixen?
 
I can't help thinking we haven't heard for a while about the "below-the-waterline" opening in the starboard hull, bolstered by tales of towels and swimming pools and minisubs and torpedoes and "it's the only way the ship could've sunk so quickly, not some stupid reason like the bow visor coming off after one large wave" types of embellishment.

Time for a re-run of some of the classics, Vixen! I hope you won't let us down. It is almost Christmas, after all :D

Here's a picture of those two car deck doors, which the JAIC believe would likely have been smashed to smithereens due to the incredible force of the ingression of water. Shot taken September 2021 by Margus Kurm's crew, some 27 years later. So much for the force of the sea.

Expedition lead Margus Kurm described the discovery a significant as official reports have so far relied on estimates according to which the doors broke because of water pressure.
Kurm said it is the biggest discovery of the private MS Estonia expedition so far. “The most significant discovery so far is reaching the middle section car deck doors on the starboard side. We saw two sliding doors that allowed access to decks below and above the car deck. It turns out they are intact and closed,” Kurm said.
The former public prosecutor said the find is significant because official reports have proceeded from the opposite. “Earlier investigations have presumed that the middle section doors gave out under water pressure, which is how water made its way from the car deck to lower decks,” Kurm said, adding that other doors leading to lower decks have not been studied yet.
Kurm explained that people who escaped from deck one also said that the doors were closed in their statements. “None of the 22 people who escaped from deck one said doors leading to the car deck were open. On the contrary – they all maintain the doors were closed,” Kurm, who also led the initial MS Estonia investigation, said.
Postimees
 

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I see, so people who belong to a police union cannot possibly be police themselves.

Got it.

If people employed by the police department are represented by two unions, one composed of sworn peace officers and the other composed of non-sworn administrative workers, then you must be clear on which union some particular person belongs to before you characterize him as a police officer based on that membership.

Exactly. As I described in this post:

The meaning of the "ST" is the key thing to understand. There are two unions that represent employees within the police force. "ST" and "Polisförbundet". Polisförbundet represent polices, meaning those that have been through Polishögskolan (the Police Academy) , and are employed as a police.

ST represents the civilian employees of the police force. They can be on all levels in the organisation. As of right now, there are about 33000 employees in the police force, 12000 of them are civilians.

Here is the english description of the ST Union:
ST - The Union of Civil Servants is the largest union within the state and has approximately 95 000 members. Our members work for state agencies, companies employed by the state, universities, colleges and state financed foundations.

ST organizes its members according to the following principle; one workplace - one trade union. In general there is an ST section at every authority, public utility or state company.
 
And Bjorkman was there on page 2 of 102 of part 1, though not named as such.

I'd rather hear about radioactive waste burning holes through the ramp/visor, or shady blokes pushing contraband in a truck out of the front of a vast assembly that they had no way of opening manually, in a ship that was pitching like crazy in a storm.

That would be Harri Ruotsalainen, who suspects that whoever was steering the ship, deliberately drove it hard into the waves as they wanted it to sink. From being fifteen minutes behind when it left Tallinn, by the time it sank it had gained over an hour on Silja Europa and Mariella., and strangely, neither of them nor Turku MRCC could quite capture Estonia on the sonar.

Finnish JAIC employee Harri Ruotsalainen stated that Estonia shortly after departure from Tallinn at 19:15 on On September 28, 1994, after crossing the Estonian island of Dagö, sped along at top speed but then went down to a speed of 6/ 5 knots, opened the car ramp in the back to throw one or two trucks with illicit cargo into the sea, and then tried to return to the spot to sink the vessel on top of it. However, there is a significant debris field about five hundred metres from the wreck, which he thinks could be the trucks. Problem is, looks like Sweden has poured rocks and concrete over them. Ostensibly to form a base for their proposed concrete cover.

Ruotsalainen saw the sonar images as one of the appointed interns for the dive at the time.
 
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Indeed, a post calculated -- and I use the term loosely -- to strengthen the illusion that Vixen is competent in physics without her having to display any actual skill at the subject.

Of course there are proofs of Archimedes' discoveries, and not just his work in displacement and buoyancy. The most satisfying proofs are empirical. Similarly there are many ways in which one can try to prove one is competent in physics. But the only one that matters is the empirical one: one actually has to be able to do physics. Telling dubious stories about her prowess at school, the praise of her teachers, etc. simply will not substitute.

A fair amount of Vixen's claims either base themselves on physical science principles, or are testable by those means. She's hitched her wagon to a claimant, Anders Björkman, who she believe has her back when it comes to science; she can just parrot what he says and no real scientist would be able to argue against it. But when it comes to science, the man is an obvious crackpot with no discernible skill at physics, or at best no discernible desire to represent it accurately. What's more important is that her critics have the knowledge and skill to see this for themselves while she's still wallowing in ignorant bluffs. Her critics also have the knowledge and skill to know -- not just guess or suppose -- but to know that she don't have any idea what she's talking about when it comes to the physical science portion of her claims. That knowledge is not going to be displaced by her nostalgic recollections of questionable authenticity.

She keeps peppering us with ill-conceived questions such as how a ship can "float on its superstructure." She considers it an unshakable article of faith that any ship, once it has passed its angle of vanishing stability, will turtle. She stumbled across a lecture presenting some of the elementary principles of transverse stability, but she don't seem to actually want to learn about the subject. She's using scientific references as opaque, magical incantations to dispel criticism, not as tools to help learn about the way the natural world behaves. If she expended half the effort she spends in pretending to be right toward actual learning, she might be happier in the long run even if it means shedding some of the counterfeit pretense to erudition along the way.

For the avoidance of doubt, I have absolutely nothing to do with Bjorkmann. My views have nothing to do with him.
 
So you see, initially - see first newsclip - there were several possible cause for the accident so why firmly state it was the bow visor on Day One?
And you still haven't shown any source for this. Remember, you claimed that Bildt put out a press release on day one, stating that the bow visor was the cause. You still haven't shown the press release, or in fact anyone that mentions it. Wouldn't you expect HS to report that?

And we know it was Carl Bildt who insisted because Estonian PM Laar said so in an interview.
What interview? When? Citation needed.

And remember, I already shared sources that specifically say that Bildt deferred to the JAIC:
My translation:
"At the press conference, Carl Bildt was also asked if he was aware of the information that a front hatch on the ship was not closed and that it caused large bodies of water to rush into the ship.
Carl Bildt rejected the question and said that it was not the prime ministers' job to handle tasks belonging to the Accident Investigation Board."
 
Not that I don't believe you, but evidence of that please?

Wait, do you mean the forced repatriation of Ahmed Agiza and Muhammad al-Zery? They weren't "disappeared" they were deported back to Egypt. Sure, that wasn't a great thing given the possibility of what Egypt would do to them but that's not "disappearing" them.

It was, because it didn't follow the protocol of the Rome Statute in how to treat criminal suspects, to which Sweden was a signatory.

Or do you believe the USA is the policemen of the world and can just demand that people be snatched off the street and transported away on one of their cargo planes?
 
It shows they were meeting with 'colleagues' in Tallinn, which was their destination.
No, that is not true. Their destination was Stockholm. They were on a conference trip, having the conference on board M/S Estonia.

During the stop in Tallin, some went shopping, and some visited with colleagues, according to a book that couldn't even get the union correct.
 
How is the international criminal code you cited to evidence that Sweden at any time caused anyone to "disappear," at the request of the CIA or otherwise?

The international treaty spells out a determination that nations should follow a humanitarian protocol in the treatment of suspected persons.
 
For the avoidance of doubt, I have absolutely nothing to do with Bjorkmann. My views have nothing to do with him.

Hey, another one-line brush-off.

Your views on how ships capsize and/or sink is exactly that of Anders Björkman, and of no one else. No one gets it wrong quite the same way as he does. You've made that belief a central pillar of your argument in this thread. You've been citing him as an authority for your views on ship stability since Day One. You've been defending him as an authority. Of course now you're in the denial stage because you've failed to rehabilitate him -- once again. But this too has happened several times in this thread. As I said, we'd like to get to the bottom of this. We'd like to have impeached Björkman as an authority and have that stay the case from now on. Will you agree to that? No more citing him as a source? No more tacitly borrowing his arguments?

Have you given any thought to the questions I asked you previously, characterized as a "pop quiz" to see how much you understood the lecture on ship stability? Have you figured out the mathematical effects of flooding? Can you actually do the math, instead of dragging us involuntarily down Memory Lane?
 
It shows it wouldn't be the first time Sweden 'disappeared' suspects at the request of the CIA (as it did with the two Egyptians in 2001).

If something happened in 1994, that would be an example of it not being the "first time" happening since a similar thing happened in 2001?
 
OK, so I found this passage in Jack A Nelson's book, 'Flashes in the Night', 2010, Apprentice House.



So a union man who belonged to the 'foreign affairs section of the Stockholm police union'.

That's terribly friendly.


What do you mean by "that's terribly friendly"?

Police forces everywhere have points of contact with police forces in other jurisdictions (especially, of course, neighbouring jurisdictions - for very obvious reasons). The day-to-day management of those relationships will be an administrative function; police officers will then have a (hopefully) properly-functioning conduit to use, as and when they need to liaise with their foreign counterparts on an investigation.

There's nothing to see here, Vixen. There really, truly is not. You're finding intrigue where absolutely none exists.
 
It shows it wouldn't be the first time Sweden 'disappeared' suspects at the request of the CIA (as it did with the two Egyptians in 2001).
How is the Rome Statue of the International Criminal Court evidence that Sweden disappeared suspects at the request of the CIA? :confused:
 
It was, because it didn't follow the protocol of the Rome Statute in how to treat criminal suspects, to which Sweden was a signatory.

Or do you believe the USA is the policemen of the world and can just demand that people be snatched off the street and transported away on one of their cargo planes?

But that isn't what happened. They were deported back to Egypt.

Correcting myself, the CIA, or at least some Americans, along with Egyptians, did the deporting. They were in Sweden, the CIA (probably) asked Sweden to deport them back to Egypt, Sweden arrested them, took them to the airport immediately, and deported them back to Egypt. Again, correction, the CIA did assist with the deportation, my mistake, they didn't disappear, they just went back to Egypt. What do you think constitutes being "disappeared"?
 
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