Discussion: Transwomen are not women (Part 7)

[Emily's Cat]

Sometimes I wonder if the people who trot out the analogy really support trans people in any meaningful way. The differences in the situations are so obvious that they can't be missed. If someone can't see that, are they really trying to achieve an effective solution that values all people, or are they just repeating slogans?

ETA:. Similarly for every variation on, "Why don't you ever talk about transmen?" Anyone with a basic grasp of the actual issue understands why the focus is on transwomen more often than not. Bringing it up just demonstrates poor comprehension and obsession with some sort of "equality", without any understanding of why equality is often a worthy goal, but sometimes is not .

I'll add on that I often see arguments to the effect that "separate but equal" is NEVER a good policy.

To which I respond that this is not the case here. In fact, sex segregation is "separate because unequal". Unequal in terms of physical strength, aggressiveness, and the burden of reproduction. While males and females should be *socially* equal, we are NOT biologically equal. And that biological inequality is exactly why we have sex segregation in so very many situations.

Because when you attempt to FORCE unsegregated situations where sex matters... it is ALWAYS females who pay the price.

Not that the few males on the "pro-trans-everything" side of this discussion actually give a **** about females, but hey. It's worth pointing out.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Tell us again why private rooms or the teacher's rooms for use by trans students isn't an acceptable option?

Why don't we just send the girls that object to use the private rooms. After all, it's not like there's any shame in being singled out, right?

 

[Emily's Cat]

You are affirming the consequent.

If women are prejudiced against transwomen, they will want to keep transwomen out of the locker rooms.
Women want transwomen out of the locker rooms.

Therefore, women are prejudiced.

Well stated. And the logical flaw should be glaringly obvious.

If A then B absolutely does not mean If B then A. This is day one critical thinking.

 

[theprestige]

I'd be quite interested to see whether any trans rights advocates are vocally supporting the "individual privacy" option rather than demanding that transgender individuals be treated precisely the same as cisgender individuals of the opposite birth sex.

It seems like a good option for new builds, as I've pointed out several times over the years.

It's an interesting option. It raises questions about whether maximizing privacy is the most cost-effective use of limited floor space.

But I doubt we'll see any vocal support from TRAs for this option. The goal, as you say, is " that transgender individuals be treated precisely the same as cisgender individuals of the opposite birth sex."

Sex-segregated bathrooms provide a powerful opportunity for normalizing trans-acceptance.

Why don't we just send the girls that object to use the private rooms. After all, it's not like there's any shame in being singled out, right?

Q.E.D.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Women are not a monolith. Some are indeed quite bigoted. Many are not. Polling generally shows that women are far more accepting of queer people, including trans people, than men.

You keep trotting this out, and implying that this means that most females are fine with male-bodied people in their restrooms. And it does NOT mean that. Most females are more accepting of transgender people than men, yes. SOCIALLY. But females overwhelmingly do NOT want people with penises in their restrooms, locker rooms, changing rooms, and prisons... regardless of how those people identify.

Because, at the end of the day, a transwoman is NOT a woman, and a transwoman with a penis is 100% a man when people are naked.

 

[Emily's Cat]

When women are made aware that most trans "women" retain their male genitalia, the majority, unsurprisingly (to the ideologically unblinkered, at least) say NO THANKS to mixed-sex changing rooms and showers. This has nothing to do with bigotry.

Entitlement and outrage at feeling excluded from things one has no right to be included in, are two major hallmarks of narcissism.

#NoThankYou

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Q.E.D.

I thought the sarcasm of my comment was obvious, but apparently not.

 

[Meadmaker]

Why don't we just send the girls that object to use the private rooms. After all, it's not like there's any shame in being singled out, right?

Volume. Numbers.

It would be too costly to provide private space for all the cispeople, but it would not be too costly to provide private space for all the transpeople.

ETA: and yes, I understood the sarcasm, but it was kind of a sarcasm fail, for a few reasons. First, because it has actually been done in several places. The girls in the Colleen Brenna case were shuffled off to the little room. I've seen a few instances of schools noting that everyone should feel comfortable in the bathroom, so if any of the girls don't like the presence of a transgirl, there is a private facility available to all.

Second, the part about there being no shame in being singled out is, or at least ought to be, true. There shouldn't be any shame in acknowledging reality and noting that transgirls and cisgirls are different. However, that doesn't fit the TRA agenda, which seems to pretend that the differences are inconsequential.

 

[theprestige]

I thought the sarcasm of my comment was obvious, but apparently not.

No, the sarcasm was obvious. You were arguing against sending girls to private changing rooms, just as I predicted.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Second, the part about there being no shame in being singled out is, or at least ought to be, true. There shouldn't be any shame in acknowledging reality and noting that transgirls and cisgirls are different. However, that doesn't fit the TRA agenda, which seems to pretend that the differences are inconsequential.

It doesn't match the reality that trans people face tremendous stigma and vicious bullying, discrimination, and outright hate crimes at alarming levels.

Any talk of "acknowledging reality" must account for the plain fact that trans people face intense bigotry in their day to day life, and that "separate but equal" has an extremely poor track record in such contexts.

 

[Meadmaker]

It doesn't match the reality that trans people face tremendous stigma and vicious bullying, discrimination, and outright hate crimes at alarming levels.

Any talk of "acknowledging reality" must account for the plain fact that trans people face intense bigotry in their day to day life.

And if you force high school girls to share a locker room with them all that will stop? I suppose some data on that would be helpful. I don't have any.

Since we are balancing rights here, we kind of have to know how bad each solution is.

Of course, balancing those rights requires people to acknowledge that cisgirls lose something if a transgirl is in their locker room.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

And if you force high school girls to share a locker room with them all that will stop? I suppose some data on that would be helpful. I don't have any.

Since we are balancing rights here, we kind of have to know how bad each solution is.

Of course, balancing those rights requires people to acknowledge that cisgirls lose something if a transgirl is in their locker room.

I'm not well read on the subject, but I was generally under the impression that social transition did a lot of ameliorate the high levels of mental health problems that trans people often face.

Social transition alone isn't a magic bullet. A school that fails in their duty to provide a harassment free environment could probably cause a lot of damage. Given how poorly schools do with curtailing bullying and even outright criminal violence among their students generally, I imagine that this would be a huge problem.

 

[porch]

I see. And do you think white women in the Southern states of the US in the 1950s were happy about the prospect of black men now being allowed to sit right up against their teenage daughters on the small two-person bus benches?

I'm going to go out on a limb here.... and suggest that if white people had been polled in those states, a sizeable majority would have been against the idea of allowing black people to share bus benches with white people. If your "logic" had been applied in, say, Alabama in the 1950s, black civil rights might never have happened.....

But fortunately civil rights did happen, and that is why, ever since, the right for black men to use women's washrooms has been enshrined in law. We're on the right side of history now. Good analogy.

 

[theprestige]

I'm not well read on the subject, but I was generally under the impression that social transition did a lot of ameliorate the high levels of mental health problems that trans people often face.

One thing we've been asking for repeatedly (though not lately) in this thread is any kind of scientific support for prescribing social transition as a good treatment for the mental health problems that trans people face.

Ideally some sort of peer reviewed research that says, "these are the mental health problems that trans people face, this is what 'social transition' as a treatment consists of, and here's how it compares to other treatments".

 

[Meadmaker]

One thing we've been asking for repeatedly (though not lately) in this thread is any kind of scientific support for prescribing social transition as a good treatment for the mental health problems that trans people face.

Ideally some sort of peer reviewed research that says, "these are the mental health problems that trans people face, this is what 'social transition' as a treatment consists of, and here's how it compares to other treatments".

Based on how the subject came up in the most recent mention, can you not social transition if you use the faculty bathroom instead of the primary girls' bathroom?

In either case, everyone knows that you are trans.

 

[d4m10n]

Any talk of "acknowledging reality" must account for the plain fact that trans people face intense bigotry in their day to day life, and that "separate but equal" has an extremely poor track record in such contexts.

What evidence can you marshal to demonstrate that sex-segregated bathrooms and changing rooms are de facto unequal between males and females?

ETA: Did you mean us to confuse sex (an observable biological phenomenon) with race (a pernicious social construct)?

 

[theprestige]

Maybe we're meant to confuse race (a pernicious social construct) with gender (a pernicious social construct).

 

[d4m10n]

Maybe we're meant to confuse race (a pernicious social construct) with gender (a pernicious social construct).

In which case the analogy doesn't suck.

 

[theprestige]

In which case the analogy doesn't suck.

It's an awesome analogy. Spot on and fully analogous in all the relevant parts. But let's see what ST and LJ have to say about it. Avatar bet it doesn't convince.

 

[d4m10n]

Avatar bet it doesn't convince.

Alas, I've sworn an oath not to change this avatar until the last N. American mask mandate expires.