Discussion: Transwomen are not women (Part 7)

[Louden Wilde]

If women will sit next to white males but not black males the issue is clearly race.

If people will share changing rooms with straight people of their own sex but not gay people of their own sex, the issue is clearly sexual orientation.

When you produce evidence that women will happily undress in the presence of adult male strangers who are 'cis' but not adult male strangers who are 'trans' (assuming there is any way to tell the difference) I will believe the issue is being trans.

Until then your comparison remains as ridiculous and irrelevant as ever unless you are arguing that segregating anything by sex is the same as segregating by race.

Well put. And will likely get ignored by LJ, ST et al.
Moreover, they can never explain why self-proclaimed gender identity is more important than sex. In other words, it always comes back to minimizing or outright denying that girls/women have been oppressed/discriminated against on the basis of their sex.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

In one situation, group A objected to sharing a bathroom with group B.

Although group A's objection had been accommodated for a long time, at some point society at large evaluated the objections and decided that those objections should no longer be accommodated.

Therefore, any time any group objects to sharing a bathroom with a different group, the first group's objections should be ignored.

QED.

It's not like this is a new phenomena. Very similar complaints were made about gay and lesbian people at the time.

This is all well trod territory at this point, but I would again point out that providing people individual privacy is probably the best solution.

I'm curious how people would respond to polls about whether they were prefer communal changing/showering rooms vs individual stalls.

Perhaps it's worth asking why we compel children to change in plain view of their peers at all. This is not some natural condition, it's usually something that has to be conditioned as normal. Locker room anxiety, even outside the trans rights context, is not a novel concept.

For example:

Do your kids shower after gym class? Tradition fading away for some

...


The result: Parents, who have their own horror stories about showering in front of their peers and undergoing shower inspections by gym teachers, have pushed for an end to the practice. And school districts, worried about lawsuits and other problems, have given in.

In the early 1990s, the Hollidaysburg school district in Pennsylvania drew national attention after the American Civil Liberties Union threatened to sue over its shower rule. A girl there got in trouble for refusing to open her towel so a gym teacher could make sure she wasn't wearing underwear into the shower.

If the norm is that you need authority figures policing showers to ensure that people use them, then perhaps these old fashioned, sex-segregated showers aren't that great of a solution either.

https://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/os-xpm-2011-01-02-os-florida-students-shower-in-school-20110102-story.html

Dating myself here, in my years going through middle and high school in the early 2000's, I don't recall a single instance where the showers were used after our gym classes. Students would quickly towel off and hose themselves down with some noxious body spray rather than strip naked in front of their all male peers.

 

[Meadmaker]

I'm curious how people would respond to polls about whether they were prefer communal changing/showering rooms vs individual stalls.

It's not even a question worth asking. Everyone would prefer more privacy.

Every thinking person also understands there is a tradeoff of privacy vs. economy. It's not a question of what you want, it's a question of how much you want it, and willingness to pay the cost.

This, too, is very well worn ground.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

It's not even a question worth asking. Everyone would prefer more privacy.

Every thinking person also understands there is a tradeoff of privacy vs. economy. It's not a question of what you want, it's a question of how much you want it, and willingness to pay the cost.

This, too, is very well worn ground.

Seems like you would need to have a good read of the baseline level of changing room discomfort before ascribing any special significance to any other factor.

From an economy point of view, not building these showers at all is probably the best play, because seems more often than not students will opt not to use them unless they are compelled to do so. A huge waste of money.

 

[crazycat]

LOL you have no idea.

Since you appear to have misunderstood (or you're pretending to have misunderstood), this was specifically about Meadmaker's proposition that the question of whether transgirls should be allowed to use the girls' bathroom.... should reasonably be determined by asking cisgirls whether they'd feel less safe under such a move.

With me so far?

So:

Question 1: Should transgirls be allowed to use the girls' bathroom?

Proposition 1: This should be determined by asking cisgirls whether they'd feel less safe.

Cisgirls are asked. They (very probably) say that yes, they'd feel less safe.

Outcome 1: Transgirls are not allowed to use the girls' bathroom.


Still with me?


Question 2: Should black people be allowed to share the small bench seats on public buses with white people?

Proposition 2: This should be determined by asking white people whether they'd feel less safe.

White people are asked. They (very probably) say that yes, they'd feel less safe.

Outcome 2: Black people are not allowed to share the bench seats with white people.


Frankly, if you can't see the direct read-across similarity, you're either ignorant or wilfully deceptive. But yeah, keep bleating on about how race-based rights and transgender-based rights are, like, totally different (and of course yes they're different, but they share many points of similarity which you all are very tellingly trying to handwave away).

Which is why I don't bother engaging with you on your terms any more. I really don't care what you think, because most of you are cloaking your innate bigotry (which amusingly keeps revealing itself) under what you think is the catch-all mantra around ciswomen's rights and ciswomen's safety. You're all wrong, and history will judge you as such

There is one big difference - to ride the bus, you don't have to remove clothing around your sexual organs.

The problem isn't transwomen, it's male bodied people in women's spaces. As has been posted a thousand times before, how can one tell if a person is truly trans, just trying the trans lifestyle, or perverts who have found another way to victimize women.

Slightly changing the subject:

A big thank you to the cis-men and cis-women who frequently post here with respect for cis-women's rights and safety. As an infrequent poster, I appreciate your posts. I have seen no one who is actually anti-trans. I have seen that there are issues where trans rights conflict with cis-women's rights, and you explain them well.

An equally big boo to the TRAs who don't have enough empathy with cis-women to even understand that there are even issues without resorting to name-calling and allegations of bigotry.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

There is one big difference - to ride the bus, you don't have to remove clothing around your sexual organs.

The problem isn't transwomen, it's male bodied people in women's spaces. As has been posted a thousand times before, how can one tell if a person is truly trans, just trying the trans lifestyle, or perverts who have found another way to victimize women.

Slightly changing the subject:

A big thank you to the cis-men and cis-women who frequently post here with respect for cis-women's rights and safety. As an infrequent poster, I appreciate your posts. I have seen no one who is actually anti-trans. I have seen that there are issues where trans rights conflict with cis-women's rights, and you explain them well.

An equally big boo to the TRAs who don't have enough empathy with cis-women to even understand that there are even issues without resorting to name-calling and allegations of bigotry.

A more apt analogy is how whites really, really objected to the idea of sharing swimming pools and beaches with black people. The idea of that level of intimate contact with black people's bodies while in a state of partial undress was simply disgusting to the point of being unthinkable.

Despite civil rights statutes in many states, the law did not come to African Americans’ aid. In Charlotte, North Carolina, for example, the chairman of the Charlotte Park and Recreation Commission in 1960 admitted that “all people have a right under law to use all public facilitates including swimming pools.” But he went on to point out that “of all public facilities, swimming pools put the tolerance of the white people to the test.”

https://theconversation.com/the-forgotten-history-of-segregated-swimming-pools-and-amusement-parks-119586

I don't see any reason to doubt the sincerity of white racists in this matter, they were absolutely horrified and disgusted by the proposition.

 

[Meadmaker]

Seems like you would need to have a good read of the baseline level of changing room discomfort before ascribing any special significance to any other factor.

From an economy point of view, not building these showers at all is probably the best play, because seems more often than not students will opt not to use them unless they are compelled to do so. A huge waste of money.

That article you quoted from went into a whole lot of issues related to this. You quoted one aspect, but didn't discuss the word "reek", or staph infection, that appeared in the article.

The article also didn't discuss the most common way that kids these days get around the problem of gym class showers. Talk to kids these days and you will find that many of them don't sweat in gym class.

Some people have raised the possibility that there might be a connection between this phenomenon and the substantial increase in childhood obesity.

Tradeoffs.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

That article you quoted from went into a whole lot of issues related to this. You quoted one aspect, but didn't discuss the word "reek", or staph infection, that appeared in the article.

The article also didn't discuss the most common way that kids these days get around the problem of gym class showers. Talk to kids these days and you will find that many of them don't sweat in gym class.

Some people have raised the possibility that there might be a connection between this phenomenon and the substantial increase in childhood obesity.

Tradeoffs.

Yeah, it's pretty gross that students aren't showering after exercise.

The traditional way to deal with this was to have an authority figure compel students to use these facilities, going so far as having shower inspections.

If you're someone interested at all in the privacy concerns of students or just don't want to see a school get their pants sued off when this inevitably goes poorly, this is not a great solution.

Another solution is to actually build facilities in such a way to be both useful and allow for reasonable modesty concerns.

Just as an aside, of the half dozen or so paid gyms I've been a member of, none have had open showers but instead have stalls or at least curtains. It's pretty clear what people prefer.

 

[Abooga]

A more apt analogy is how whites really, really objected to the idea of sharing swimming pools and beaches with black people. The idea of that level of intimate contact with black people's bodies while in a state of partial undress was simply disgusting to the point of being unthinkable.



https://theconversation.com/the-forgotten-history-of-segregated-swimming-pools-and-amusement-parks-119586

I don't see any reason to doubt the sincerity of white racists in this matter, they were absolutely horrified and disgusted by the proposition.

You ere arguing that females objecting to undressing in front of males is the same as whites objecting to be in a state of partial undress in front of blacks. Do you really think that´s similar? Do you think that a girl feeling uncomfortable if naked in front of a guy is like racism? Seriously?

 

[d4m10n]

Frankly, if you can't see the direct read-across similarity, you're either ignorant or wilfully deceptive.

I'm willing to admit that human males are uniquely dangerous to human females, on account of the prevalence of male sexual violence against females.

Are you ready to assert that people of African ancestry pose an analogous risk to people of European ancestry?

If you're unwilling to do so, should we not see this as a crucial point of disanalogy?

LOL you have no idea.

I've certainly no idea why you continue to pursue an analogy between race and sex, given that "races" don't pose unique threats to one another whereas one sex does pose such a threat (e.g. forcible sodomy in a girls' bathroom).

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Are you ready to assert that people of African ancestry pose an analogous risk to people of European ancestry?

Somewhere out in the deep darkness of the internet, a stormfront user snaps awake though he doesn't know why.

 

[Matthew Best]

I think it's a bit unfair to imply that LondonJohn is a stormfront user.

 

[JihadJane]

...


So:

Question 1: Should transgirls be allowed to use the girls' bathroom?

Proposition 1: This should be determined by asking cisgirls whether they'd feel less safe.

Cisgirls are asked. They (very probably) say that yes, they'd feel less safe.

Outcome 1: Transgirls are not allowed to use the girls' bathroom.


Still with me?

No, you lost me at "transgirls".

Translation using honest, biologically accurate, trans-ideology-free language:

Question 1: Should boys be allowed to use the girls' bathroom?

Proposition 1: This should be determined by asking girls whether they'd feel less safe.

Girls are asked. They (very probably) say that yes, they'd feel less safe.

Outcome 1: Boys are not allowed to use the girls' bathroom.

 

[Meadmaker]

Another solution is to actually build facilities in such a way to be both useful and allow for reasonable modesty concerns.

Just as an aside, of the half dozen or so paid gyms I've been a member of, none have had open showers but instead have stalls or at least curtains. It's pretty clear what people prefer.

But don't pretend there is no tradeoff involved here. More privacy requires more space and more cleaning.

I've been going to gyms for thirty years. Lots of changes during those decades. If I recall correctly, the first one had open showers, but I wouldn't swear to it. (That's how little I cared.). Planet Fitness has individual shower stalls right next to individual changing stalls. It's a bloody nuisance. But whatever. That's consumer preference, I guess.

There's also a speed factor. In a high school gym class, everyone needs a shower at the same time. That leads to different issues.

I'm not saying high schools ought to do things in a specific way. That's a value judgement. I'm just saying there are tradeoffs between privacy, utility, and cost.

 

[Ziggurat]

Frankly, if you can't see the direct read-across similarity, you're either ignorant or wilfully deceptive.

Oh, I see the similarity. The problem is, I also see the difference, and it invalidates the comparison. This analogy has been tried countless times in this thread already, and it always fails, for reasons that have already been explained at length and that you have still never come to terms with. Biological sex is simply not equivalent to race. Whenever you pretend it is, it's obvious that your arguments are dishonest.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

I'm not saying high schools ought to do things in a specific way. That's a value judgement. I'm just saying there are tradeoffs between privacy, utility, and cost.

That's fair, but I would point out that often the issue is framed as a zero sum conflict between the rights of women and trans people, eliding that other options, however costly, exist.

In any hypothetical polling of opinion concerning these spaces, seems like it would only be fair to include a "individual privacy" option to see how that fares. I suspect it would do quite well.

 

[d4m10n]

I'd be quite interested to see whether any trans rights advocates are vocally supporting the "individual privacy" option rather than demanding that transgender individuals be treated precisely the same as cisgender individuals of the opposite birth sex.

It seems like a good option for new builds, as I've pointed out several times over the years.

 

[theprestige]

I'd be quite interested to see whether any trans rights advocates are vocally supporting the "individual privacy" option rather than demanding that transgender individuals be treated precisely the same as cisgender individuals of the opposite birth sex.

It seems like a good option for new builds, as I've pointed out several times over the years.

It's an interesting option. It raises questions about whether maximizing privacy is the most cost-effective use of limited floor space.

But I doubt we'll see any vocal support from TRAs for this option. The goal, as you say, is " that transgender individuals be treated precisely the same as cisgender individuals of the opposite birth sex."

Sex-segregated bathrooms provide a powerful opportunity for normalizing trans-acceptance.

 

[Meadmaker]

Oh, I see the similarity. The problem is, I also see the difference, and it invalidates the comparison. This analogy has been tried countless times in this thread already, and it always fails, for reasons that have already been explained at length and that you have still never come to terms with. Biological sex is simply not equivalent to race. Whenever you pretend it is, it's obvious that your arguments are dishonest.

Sometimes I wonder if the people who trot out the analogy really support trans people in any meaningful way. The differences in the situations are so obvious that they can't be missed. If someone can't see that, are they really trying to achieve an effective solution that values all people, or are they just repeating slogans?

ETA:. Similarly for every variation on, "Why don't you ever talk about transmen?" Anyone with a basic grasp of the actual issue understands why the focus is on transwomen more often than not. Bringing it up just demonstrates poor comprehension and obsession with some sort of "equality", without any understanding of why equality is often a worthy goal, but sometimes is not .

 

[theprestige]

ETA:. Similarly for every variation on, "Why don't you ever talk about transmen?" Anyone with a basic grasp of the actual issue understands why the focus is on transwomen more often than not. Bringing it up just demonstrates poor comprehension and obsession with some sort of "equality", without any understanding of why equality is often a worthy goal, but sometimes is not .

There's also the fact that sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. Whatever conclusions you reach as a result of debating access and acceptance for transwomen, the same conclusions can be applied to transmen as well. There's just less of a risk and less of a pressing need for resolution on that side of the binary coin.