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Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part IV

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Vixen said:
What I was trying to explain was that stability is based on centre of gravity/buoyancy, together with the metacentric height, and not on 'mast upright.

Let me quote Taggart from Sheen again:

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In other words, centre of gravity can be at an actual 7° angle to begin with as per the boat, so a list measured at an angle in actual terms is M + 7° in the above example.
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No, list is measured as an angle from the ship being on a level keel.

Can you think why?
 
Vixen said:
Well, no. If you imagine the sea surface is some way above the diameter, representing the horizon, on our imaginary circle, then it is apparent that the sea encompasses part of the hull submerged in the water. Thus, it can be readily seen that even a small list of 40° - 45° will have the side touching the sea surface and if it capsize at this point by 90 ° it would already be well on the way of having turtled already.

Justice Sheen says The Herald of Free Enterprise had already turned "more than 90 °" and had come to rest on a sand bar that was at 136°. The ship had already turtled past the point of negative stability but had been slightly rotated back to come to rest at 136° on its port side beam ends and the starboard side sticking out of the shallow water.
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Why are you finding this so hard to understand?

40 to 45 degrees is not a 'small list' it is a huge list!

What do you mean the 'side touching the sea surface?
90 degrees would have it laid on it's side, not "well on the way of having turtled already"

How could a sand bar be at 136 degrees? that doesn't make sense.

What do you think 'beam ends' means?
 
Vixen said:
Think about it. There were 70 Stockholm Police on board. Stockholm being the capital I am guessing the elite. Some possibly SäPo, similar to the UK's MI5.
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What is your evidence for this?

Are you being 'hypothetical' here?

MI5 is not a part of the police, the clue is in the name.
 
Vixen said:
Think about it. There were 70 Stockholm Police on board. Stockholm being the capital I am guessing the elite. Some possibly SäPo, similar to the UK's MI5.



Do you really think they would be happy with a 'bow visor fell off' story from Day One?



Get real! In reality no stone would be left unturned to bring the culprits to justice, if any. You can be sure of that.



So OBVIOUSLY labelled 'Classified' for whatever reason, and the public handed a The Herald of Free Enterprise Mk II soporific.
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The only useful part of that is "I am guessing". You have a setup which looks like it ought to fit the plot of a spy thriller but however hard you hammer it, it won't fit and just ends up looking like paranoid claptrap.
 
Vixen said:
So you see, a 40°, it has already copped it.
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Why would you think this?

A ship can sit at 40 degrees of heel without turning all the way over if flooding is stopped.
A ship can be at 40 degrees and flood until it sinks without going any further over.

As you can see from the Clinometer examples, they both go further than 40 and the US Nave one goes over to 60.
 
Captain_Swoop said:
How does it do this? He is not mentioned in that quote.

German, Swedish and Finnish built ferries did not have all the features recommended after the HOFE report.
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Helsingin Sanomat 29.9.1994


The problem with ferries is precisely the car deck, which is a large uniform space at the end and side of the ship. Although the rest of the ship is divided into watertight compartments, the division does not extend to the car deck - so the water can move and accumulate unhindered.

Enterprise, for example, was turned down by the amount of water that, if spread evenly, would have covered the car deck thinly, by some counts only about an inch a floor. Immediately after the Enterprise accident, there was talk that the car deck should also be compartmental. However, it is considered too difficult a solution for the transport of cargo. On the other hand, the stability of the vessels, i.e. the ability to survive, has been improved. In 1990, the International Maritime Organisation (IMO) adopted standards which also apply to old ships. A key figure shall be calculated for the vessel. This is determined by the fact that the ship will have to comply with the new regulations at the latest. The grace period for the "most wedges" expires as early as the beginning of Next October, there is time for the best modifications to start October 2005, and the latest equipment is suitable as such. Estonia's forecast was also provisionally calculated in Finland: there would be time around 1998 - not an impossible task. And according to Silja Line, for example, Estonia was a ship that was also known as Silja's Star and Wasa King. According to those who worked on the ship, it didn't even roll badly in rough seas. Free Enterprise had its bow gate left open. To prevent this, ships were assigned warning lights and TV cameras to tell up the bridge about the status of the gates. In its inspection in 1987, the Turku Maritime District concluded that Viking Sally already had lights. The ships also developed checklists in which the check-out was used to check out the departure operations.

In 1987, an English seafarer condemned baltic sea ferries on a BBC programme by the prestigious English broadcaster BBC. In his opinion, the development of the ships had not gone as close to its borders as in Finnish and Swedish traffic, and the design of the ships does not forgive the crew for any mistakes. The programme called the Swedish ferries 'floating coffins'. In particular, the Englishman's eyes had been affected by the fact that the ships were moving at sea so that watertight doors were open in the engine room below the waterline. Finnish maritime authorities, shipping companies and shipyards rejected the programme's claims and stressed that the world's safest equipment is moving in Swedish traffic. Car cover as a problem Add seriousness to bow gate monitoring.
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HS


So, it had the car ramp lights, the car deck cameras and it had the bow visor (= the recommended additional gate).
 
Justice Sheen says The Herald of Free Enterprise had already turned "more than 90 °" and had come to rest on a sand bar that was at 136°. The ship had already turtled past the point of negative stability but had been slightly rotated back to come to rest at 136° on its port side beam ends and the starboard side sticking out of the shallow water.
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Sheen J said it “came to rest on a heading of 136°“.

When he talked about the Herald floating “more or less on her beam ends”, what position was he saying it would have been in?
 
Captain_Swoop said:
What is your evidence for this?

Are you being 'hypothetical' here?

MI5 is not a part of the police, the clue is in the name.
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In Sweden and Finland the intelligence services come under the police. I should have said, Scotland Yard as a better analogy.

It is a fact there were 70 Stockholm Police on board, only about four of five survived.

If that is not grounds for suspicion of sabotage, I don't know what is.
 
Vixen said:
The true cause of the accident which almost certainly is linked to the smuggling of soviet space and military secrets, which Sweden admitted to ten years later.
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What? You know there's a secret document describing this *because* there's no evidence it exists?
 
Captain_Swoop said:
Why are you finding this so hard to understand?

40 to 45 degrees is not a 'small list' it is a huge list!

What do you mean the 'side touching the sea surface?
90 degrees would have it laid on it's side, not "well on the way of having turtled already"

How could a sand bar be at 136 degrees? that doesn't make sense.
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It turns out that this whole diversion is the result of not knowing what “a heading of 136 degrees” means, and an inability to understand that “port” and “starboard” effectively just mean left and right if you are on a ship looking towards its bows.
 
Vixen said:
Think about it. There were 70 Stockholm Police on board. Stockholm being the capital I am guessing the elite. Some possibly SäPo, similar to the UK's MI5.

...

.
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Ha ha!

The Police on board Estonia were all civilians on a union conference. The conference was about planning for the upcoming reorganisation of the police force.

These kind of posts from you really expose how får from reality you are, and how absolutely nothing posted by you can be trusted.
 
Mojo said:
It turns out that this whole diversion is the result of not knowing what “a heading of 136 degrees” means, and an inability to understand that “port” and “starboard” effectively just mean left and right if you are on a ship looking towards its bows.
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So let me get this straight. Vixen mistook 'a heading of 136 degrees' to refer to the list of the HOFE and invented the whole 45/135 degree thing to fit that narrative?

Edited by zooterkin: 
Do not alter other member's names in order to ridicule or insult them.
 
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