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Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part IV

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That is of course not what privacy laws restrict. Please show where the law say you may not put a birthdate on a piece of paper.

Your fantasies are not worth anything. In the press conference in the morning (that you can listen to at https://sok.riksarkivet.se/estonia?infosida=1994-09-28 (in Swedish)) Carl Bildt say that he was notified by an unnamed person, that got the information from a TT News flash. After that he contacted MRCC.

Citation please. In the reports I have been able to find in newspaper archives this is not supported. https://www.dn.se/arkiv/inrikes/carl-bildt-kande-folk-ombord/
https://www.svd.se/arkiv/1994-09-29/7¨
(Subscription required)

In the second article, there is some information about the press conference.


My translation:
"At the press conference, Carl Bildt was also asked if he was aware of the information that a front hatch on the ship was not closed and that it caused large bodies of water to rush into the ship.
Carl Bildt rejected the question and said that it was not the prime ministers' job to handle tasks belonging to the Accident Investigation Board."

So Vixen, show your sources that your oft repeated statement is true.

Here is my citation, which I print in full, as it is behind a paywall and in Finnish. The article is dated 30.9.1994 and refers to 'Thursday'. The accident was on a Wednesday, so the Hesari is referring to a press conference, this time with Kari Lehtola, who the previous day had been appointed on the quickly formed JAIC the day before after the three Prime Ministers flew from Turku to Helsinki after having interviewed Henrik Sillaste under police caution and with Laar translating from Estonian.

30.9.1994 2:00 Suspicions of a breach of passenger ship Estonia's bow gate were confirmed on Thursday.

"Something has happened in it," says Kari Lehtola, Member of the Research Commission. "People's observations of it are vague, but nonetheless they are there."

According to Lehtola, it is possible that both the liftable visor and the waterproof bow gate behind it have failed. However, he says they have by no means opened up. At least no serious omissions have occurred so far in the fastening of the trucks. According to Lehtola, the amount of water entering the car deck and the speed of the car deck is impossible to say. He does not yet dare to give an estimate of the speed of tilting and sinking. The time fork between tilting and sinking has now stretched between five minutes and an hour, after half an hour at the top on Wednesday. There are major differences in observations, mainly because some of the interviewees have woken up to the ship's tilt later than others.

As early as Wednesday, it was believed that water was released from the bow gate to the Estonia car deck and brought down the ship. Henrik Sillaste, an Estonian machineman who survived the accident, said he saw on the TV monitor in the engine room control room that water was spraying in from the gate seams.
Many rescued passengers also reported that the gate had leaked. The actual waterproof bow gate was behind the visor to be lifted up in estonia. If the visor attachment fails, the waves that strike the bow can throw the visor up. The visor prevents the buckthorns from hitting the bow port, which cannot withstand their force. According to experts, five to ten waves are enough to slam so much water on an open car deck that the ship capsizes. The exact location of estonia, which sank on the night before Wednesday, is still unknown.

On Thursday morning, the Maritime Administration's Suunta vessel drove into the waters of Utö in search of the wreck, but the intensified wind prevented the work. The wreck lies at a depth of 60-90 meters about 35 kilometers from Utö to the south of the city. With two sonars, locating the wreckage should be quite easy. When estonia is found, it can be examined with a coast guard robotic camera. Silja Europa also has problems with her bow gate. The two-part bow gate opening to the side of the vessel is one of the so-forths. the steering roller has been broken by a bearing and the bow gate was not opened at all after the vessel arrived in Stockholm on the night of Thursday. The cars were unloaded and loaded through the back gate. There's a waterproof door behind the bow gate in Europa, and there's nothing wrong with that.

On Thursday, the Government appointed Kari Lehtola, Deputy Judge, Heimo Iivonen, Executive Director of the Finnish Maritime Rescue Society, and Tuomo Karppinen, Doctor of Technology at VTT VTT's shipbuilding laboratory, as representatives of Finland. The representation set by the Estonian Government did not satisfy President Lennart Mer , who appointed Uno Laurio , a sea captain , as his own representative . Estonian Transport Minister Andi Meister and Minister of the Interior Heiki Arikke - suspected of involvement in illegal arms deals - sit on the Commission. The other members are government officials.

Estonia has already doubted the impartiality of the Commission, as the Estonian State is involved in the Estline shipping company. The Commission includes Estonia, Sweden and Finland. The group met for the first time in Turku on Thursday. Visor protects bow gate Wind prevented the search for wreckage Finland named its researcher
Helsingin Sanomat

As a footnote, PM Laar later said he didn't agree with Bildt's assured insistence it was the bow visor and he suspected sabotage.

So it seems reasonable to have investigated all aspects before deciding 'noone is to blame' after having interviewed just one person, who wasn't even privy to senior officers' decisions and was in the hull deck (Deck 0) claiming to be fixing a passengers toilets when the incident progressed. Sillaste told an early day newspaper, he and Treu were 'up to their knees in water', which mysteriously seems to have been left out of the JAIC report.
 
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'Midship transverse' appears to refer to a plane section drawn amidships and at right angles to the hull, i.e. the dark 'slice' in the diagram below. In that case 'at 45° to midship transverse' is completely meaningless, as far as I can see.

Perhaps, Vixen, you could explain in more detail?

Place that dark bit on the diameter of a circle so that it is resting on the 180° line. This represents an imaginary flat horizon. So the left side, port, is circa 45 ° and the right, starboard circa 135°. Imagine the letter U then the top of the far corners represents the boat shape at 45° and 135°.

That's all.
 
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This is your claim:
He [Bildt] flew to Turku the same day with Laar from Tallinn and PM Aho of Finland and by the afternoon had put out a press release it was the bow visor, .

Here is my citation, which I print in full, as it is behind a paywall and in Finnish. The article is dated 30.9.1994 and refers to 'Thursday'. The accident was on a Wednesday, so the Hesari is referring to a press conference, this time with Kari Lehtola, who the previous day had been appointed on the quickly formed JAIC the day before after the three Prime Ministers flew from Turku to Helsinki after having interviewed Henrik Sillaste under police caution and with Laar translating from Estonian.

Helsingin Sanomat
The arcticle you cite does in no way support your statement. Will you retract your statement, or can you show some other support for it?
 
Place that dark bit on the diameter of a circle so that it is resting on the 180° line. This represents an imaginary flat horizon. So the left side, port, is circa 45 ° and the right, starboard circa 135°. Imagine the letter U then the top of the far corners represents the boat shape at 45° and 135°.

That's all.

This is gibberish.

Perhaps you could draw a diagram to explain what you mean?
 
Place that dark bit on the diameter of a circle so that it is resting on the 180° line. This represents an imaginary flat horizon. So the left side, port, is circa 45 ° and the right, starboard circa 135°. Imagine the letter U then the top of the far corners represents the boat shape at 45° and 135°.

That's all.


What do you call 0° and 180°?
 
This is your claim:



The arcticle you cite does in no way support your statement. Will you retract your statement, or can you show some other support for it?

It supports my claim that Carl Bildt anounced on day one that it was the fault of the bow visor and car ramp without any evidence at all as of that point and that was the only aspect the JAIC 'investigated' and it rigidly stuck to this conclusion, despite challenges from the shipbuilder, Meyer Werft.

The effect, as no doubt Bildt intended, was to 'manage people's expectations' because from that moment there was a massive deluge of The Herald of Free Enterprise comparisions, with the BBC even producing a Panorama programme making recommendations, of the same sort as Justice Sheen in The Herald of Free Enterprise, 1987, aftermath, little realising that the German, Swedish and Finnish built car ro-ro's already had all of those recommendations and in addition, the senior officers and ship owners of The Herald of Free Enterprise were prosecuted for gross negligence and gross manslaughter.

So fait à compli for the culprits. In the meantime the people are fobbed off with a plastic The Herald of Free Enterprise but with a booby prize, no relatives recovered and brought home, no means of redress.
 
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That is of course not what privacy laws restrict. Please show where the law say you may not put a birthdate on a piece of paper.



Your fantasies are not worth anything. In the press conference in the morning (that you can listen to at https://sok.riksarkivet.se/estonia?infosida=1994-09-28 (in Swedish)) Carl Bildt say that he was notified by an unnamed person, that got the information from a TT News flash. After that he contacted MRCC.



Citation please. In the reports I have been able to find in newspaper archives this is not supported. https://www.dn.se/arkiv/inrikes/carl-bildt-kande-folk-ombord/

https://www.svd.se/arkiv/1994-09-29/7¨

(Subscription required)



In the second article, there is some information about the press conference.





My translation:

"At the press conference, Carl Bildt was also asked if he was aware of the information that a front hatch on the ship was not closed and that it caused large bodies of water to rush into the ship.

Carl Bildt rejected the question and said that it was not the prime ministers' job to handle tasks belonging to the Accident Investigation Board."



So Vixen, show your sources that your oft repeated statement is true.

Good grief. Can it really be the case that for hundreds of pages we've been arguing over whether or not it was sinister how quickly Bildt declared that the bow visor broke off, entirely on Vixen's say-so that he did say so, when it may in fact be the case that he did not say any such thing?

Did your source lie to you, Vixen?
 
The horizon, in my illustration to help you visualise.



Obviously it hasn't been very successful.
Obviously.

I think it's fair to say probably everyone else regards zero degrees as straight up and 180° as straight down. You have them horizontal.

It doesn't help explain what the concepts of port and starboard mean to you when you have them at 45° and 135° to the horizontal.
 
He is my ninth cousin. We share the same 8th great grandparents. That being so, doesn't make him immune to criticism. Enabling the CIA to smuggle sensitive and dangerous stuff out of Russia on the passenger ferry Estonia might have seemed like a 'noble cause' but it put thousands of ordinary people at foreseeable risk of retaliation by disaffected speznats, stalinists, gangsters and mafia racketeers.

In classifying the accident a secret, probably at order from the CIA, MUST and MI6, the victims' families have been deprived of:

  • Burying their loved ones in their chosen home plot
  • Having any form of redress for negligence and manslaughter/murder
  • the right to know what happened in full (closure).

Transparency and ethics are all.


There was I thinking things couldn't get much worse or much more toe-curlingly embarrassing. Then this.......

And the rest of this post is nothing more than sensationalist CT bollocks with absolutely zero grounding in actual evidence. Astonishingly, Vixen isn't even talking in suppositions any longer - she's talking as if all of this actually did take place!!
 
Place that dark bit on the diameter of a circle so that it is resting on the 180° line. This represents an imaginary flat horizon. So the left side, port, is circa 45 ° and the right, starboard circa 135°. Imagine the letter U then the top of the far corners represents the boat shape at 45° and 135°.

That's all.

This is meaningless. Port is the left side of the ship looking forward, not 45° from anywhere. Starboard is the right.
 
Place that dark bit on the diameter of a circle so that it is resting on the 180° line. This represents an imaginary flat horizon. So the left side, port, is circa 45 ° and the right, starboard circa 135°. Imagine the letter U then the top of the far corners represents the boat shape at 45° and 135°.

That's all.


Oh no, no, no, no. Please stop.

What the heck are you on about with your "left side, port, is circa 45°" and so on? It's hugely, fundamentally, incorrect.

Start perhaps by trying to understand that a whole circle comprises 360°. From this, try to understand that the four cardinal points are at 0°, 90°, 180° and 270°. The "45°" and "135°" inclinations you're talking about are diagonals in the direction of NE and SE respectively. They're entirely irrelevant in the context of talking about port and starboard.

You don't know what you're talking about, Vixen.
 
The horizon, in my illustration to help you visualise.

Obviously it hasn't been very successful.


0° is straight up. And 180° is straight down. You do know that, don't you?

(Well, I mean it's very clear that you don't know that... even though it's something a 12-year-old would have learned at school)
 
Place that dark bit on the diameter of a circle so that it is resting on the 180° line. This represents an imaginary flat horizon. So the left side, port, is circa 45 ° and the right, starboard circa 135°. Imagine the letter U then the top of the far corners represents the boat shape at 45° and 135°.

That's all.

That doesn't make sense.

Again, here is a picture of a ships Clinometer that shows angle of heel.
Notice how it is marked. 0 at the centre than on this particular one out to 40 degrees on both ends of the arc.

0W8umDqm.jpg


Here is an older Clinometer, it is a US Navy model from WW2. It uses a curved spirit level rather than a digital system.
Notice again that the centre is 0 out to 60 degrees either side (the second less curved level shows smaller angles for trimming he ship)

LoIod27m.jpg


What does this tell us about how angles of heel are measured?
 
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Here is my citation, which I print in full, as it is behind a paywall and in Finnish. The article is dated 30.9.1994 and refers to 'Thursday'. The accident was on a Wednesday, so the Hesari is referring to a press conference, this time with Kari Lehtola, who the previous day had been appointed on the quickly formed JAIC the day before after the three Prime Ministers flew from Turku to Helsinki after having interviewed Henrik Sillaste under police caution and with Laar translating from Estonian.

Helsingin Sanomat

As a footnote, PM Laar later said he didn't agree with Bildt's assured insistence it was the bow visor and he suspected sabotage.

So it seems reasonable to have investigated all aspects before deciding 'noone is to blame' after having interviewed just one person, who wasn't even privy to senior officers' decisions and was in the hull deck (Deck 0) claiming to be fixing a passengers toilets when the incident progressed. Sillaste told an early day newspaper, he and Treu were 'up to their knees in water', which mysteriously seems to have been left out of the JAIC report.


Where is Bildt mentioned?

Also, why would Estonia doubt the impartiality of the commission because they are involved with Estline? I would think the other countries involved would perhaps doubt Estonia's impartiality.
 
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Oh no, no, no, no. Please stop.

What the heck are you on about with your "left side, port, is circa 45°" and so on? It's hugely, fundamentally, incorrect.


But it’s necessary for Sheen J’s finding that “the HERALD capsized to port rather more slowly until eventually she was at more than 90°.It is not possible to say whether the ship reached more than while still floating or whether this was only when she reached the sea bed. There is some reason for thinking that the ship floated more or less on her beam ends for about a minute before finally resting on the sea bed” to support Vixen’s claim about “turning turtle”.

It’s also necessary for Vixen to not admit knowing the meaning of “on her beam ends”.
 
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