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Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part IV

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Jack by the hedge said:
Are you saying you think the authorities thought the officers deliberately sabotaged their own ship?

What are you saying? What made governments conspire to go after the Estonia's officers in secret? It makes zero sense.
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You have to admit to a certain consistency running through these posts.
 
Vixen said:
No it isn't. The Aftonbladet and Helsingin Sanomat - and also the transcript of the Mayday exchange with Mariella, has the Swedish helicopters taking off just after 02:00, and this fits the time line of Turku MRCC finally getting through to Stockholm MRCC and their ringing Turku MRCC.

Yet JAIC has Y64 and Y74 not arriving until circa 05:00 or 06:00.
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I didn't say anything about the timelines. I said they were in agreement about the number of people Svensson rescued. Are you even trying?
 
Steve said:
The JAIC sees all, knows all, and only reports what they are told to report by one particular individual who was in the Swedish government +/- 20 years ago.
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..and who was furthermore only in power for the first week or so of its existence.
 
Vixen said:
I am not interested in the cult of personality.
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LMAO if you think Bjorkman's views are somehow being vilified on account of "force of personality" issues, then we can add "force of personality" to the long, long list of things you don't understand properly.

Bjorkman is a certifiable and dangerous (on account of his latent - though hugely declined, thankfully - influence) idiot who has long since lost touch with a) reality and b) pretty much all scientific/political/economic/historical reason & principle.

To continue a theme from earlier today, and to weave in a small bit of Fawlty Towers dialogue..... when it comes to Bjorkman's views on the Estonia disaster, you might as well ask the cat.
 
Vixen said:
Let's say hypothetically that the sinking of the ship...
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You've repeatedly told us you don't deal in hypotheticals. No-one actually believes that you don't deal in hypotheticals, but it's funny to see you pretend that's what you think when it suits you only to repeatedly engage in hypotheticals, over and over and over and over...
 
Vixen said:
Unfortunate errors? How come there has never been any explanation at all as to how such errors could have happened? Silence. Blank. No mention in the JAIC.
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The role of the JAIC was to examine the causes of the disaster, and the emergency response to the disaster, so that lessons could be learned.

In the context of those huge overarching remits, a temporary miscounting during a frenetic rescue attempt in terrible weather is truly neither here nor there. These sorts of things happen often (usually, even) in the "fog of war". I am in no way surprised that the JAIC didn't waste any of its time or resources chasing its tail on that particular pointless issue.
 
Vixen said:
Stop fibbing.
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Point out the "fib", if you'd be so kind.

(And if you think someone's intentionally not telling the truth, you can write "stop lying" if you want. Using the slightly more genteel word "fibbing" doesn't make it any less of an impugning of someone's honesty, you know....)
 
Given how quickly the crew were supposedly disappeared, and given that they were rescued by Finnish search and rescue crews, what exactly does Vixen imagine happened on that night that resulted in the crew members being disappered?

First of all, the Swedish authorities must have known which crew members were responsible for being involved in the sabotaging of the Estonia, and they must have known almost immediately otherwise they couldn't have let the innocent crew members leave hospital after their rescue, while conspiring to secretly whisk away the guilty crew members on secret CIA rendition flights, in Finland, at the behest of the Swedes/US/British/whoever...

How on earth did they know almost immediately after the crew were rescued, that the Estonia had been sabotaged, that some members of the crew were (Spetsnaz ninjas notwithstanding) responsible for the sabotage, and which members were responsible, in order to immediately put into a plan to secretly squirrel them away on secret CIA rendition flights, without anyone knowing about it?
 
Vixen said:
That is untrue. The two men were registered asylum seekers. They had lawyers representing them. Egypt via the CIA requested their extradition as being suspected of being Al Quaeda supporters. The salient point is that the two guys were snatched off the street, one from a telephone booth in the middle of a conversation with his lawyer, marched to the airport and deported, where they disppeared in Eyptian system and claimed to have been tortured. Whether or not these men were despicable human beings, it breach the Rome Treaty in that they were 'disappeared' and no-one knew where the were, including their lawyers, for a long time.

Likewise, if the senior Estonian crew manning the Estonia that night were carted off elsewhere because the accident itself had to be classified* as top secret because of the involvement of governments and spy agencies, then that, too, would be a breach of the Treaty as technically everybody is entitled to go through due process and not be vanished.

*When I was on jury service waiting to be called, an usher told us that there was a top secret hearing going on at the time at the court and because it involved national security, no public were allowed and all reporting banned.
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You really have no idea, do you?

The whole point of holding such trials in camera is to ensure that things like the identities of witnesses/experts, and the nature of some of the evidence (and how that evidence was obtained) should be withheld from the general public. And rightfully so (but a senior judge must approve). If those trials were held in open court, there would literally be nothing to stop a) anyone from attending the trial in person and learning all those things, and b) anyone from reporting on the trial and telling the public about all those things.

But.....

You're actually insinuating that all notification of the judicial process in such instances, together with the outcome of any trial, is also somehow kept secret. You appear to be claiming, in effect, that the public is never allowed to know that certain individuals were ever detained, were ever tried, were ever convicted (or acquitted). Which is, to use a technical term: utter bollocks.


(And yes, I know very well that the CIA and NSA got into trouble - and rightfully so - over their attempts to detain, rendition, interrogate, try and imprison Islamist terrorists in the wake of 9/11 and the Iraq/Afghanistan invasions. But those were truly extraordinary happenings in extraordinary times. And they were not in relation to citizens of those countries that were involved in the investigations/trials/etc.)
 
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