Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part IV

[JesseCuster]

I am not sure they would have been executed. More likely serving at a US military zone prison and then given a new identity.

Why would they be given a new identity?

Also, please explain what 45 and 135 degrees refer to in this bizarre statement:

A boat is only a half circle in shape, thus if port is at 45° and starboard at 135°, it is indeed standing perpendicular to the deck and now parallel with the water's surface when turned 90°

Can you explain that in plain English and in short simple sentences? I'm kind of stupid and I can't make any sense of it.

Port is "at 45 degrees" to what?

Starboard is "at 135 degrees" to what?

 

[Reformed Offlian]

The JAIC archives clearly shows the following (the number at the end is the number of survivors rescued):

Participating helicopters:
Nationality Helicopter Number saved
Finnish Sea rescue helicopter OH-HVG 37
Swedish Air Force helicopter Q 97 15
Finnish Border Guard helicopter OH-HVD 14
Swedish Air Force helicopter Q 99 9
Finnish Border Guard helicopter OH-HVF 8
Finnish Air Force Helicopter X 92 8
Finnish Air Force Helicopter X 42 6
Swedish Air Force helicopter Q 91 6
Swedish Navy helicopter Y 68 6
Swedish Navy helicopter Y 74 6
Swedish Air Force helicopter Q 95 6
Finnish Border Guard helicopter OH-HVH 4
Finnish Air Force helicopter X 62 1
Swedish Navy helicopter Y 65 1
Swedish Navy helicopter Y 64 1
Finnish Air Force Helicopter X 82 -
Swedish Navy helicopter Y 69 -
Swedish Navy helicopter Y 72 -
Swedish Navy helicopter Y 73 -
Swedish Navy helicopter Y 75 -
Swedish Navy helicopter Y 76 -
Swedish Air Force helicopter O 98 -


Helicopter Y64 rescued 1 person.



(Aftonbladet Wednesday 28 September 1994 ; by Sven-Anders Eriksson)

Ollie Moberg was with Y74, whom JAIC claim did not arrive until about 06:00.

As for the automatically activated EPIRB SOLAS made the recommendation they be mandatory by August 1993, so stop pretending it didn't happen until much later,

The internationally renowned newspaper Helsingin Sanomat confirmed the EPIRB's of Estonia were of the automatically-activated sort as of the time of the accident.

Are we still pretending not to understand what happened? We've been over this at least twice before. The Aftonbladet writeup and the JAIC report are *in agreement* about how many people Svensson rescued. The discrepancy is a figment of your own willful incomprehension.

 

[LondonJohn]

Are we still pretending not to understand what happened? We've been over this at least twice before. The Aftonbladet writeup and the JAIC report are *in agreement* about how many people Svensson rescued. The discrepancy is a figment of your own willful incomprehension.

But.... but.... people said they were were "getting phone calls in the early days" from these disappeared people. And more sinister still: those calls kept getting cut off! I mean, if that's not bloody good evidence of a dastardly multinational conspiracy, I don't know what is. Ceteris Paribus.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Presumably terrorist-related, if that was the case.

And presumably not, if that wasn't the case. There doesn't actually appear to be a case.

Do those who advance the theory propose any explanation for why these people might have been seized?

 

[Andy_Ross]

Presumably terrorist-related, if that was the case.

So the captain and other officers were terrorists?

 

[SpitfireIX]

Vixen, I renew two questions that you've repeatedly avoided.

First, how is denying the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Japanese from nuclear attack any less vile than denying the Holocaust?

Second, can you name any qualified naval architects or marine engineers who agree with Björkman's claims about the Estonia?

 

[Andy_Ross]

From the report
Chapter 7 The rescue Operation
Section 7.5.5 Action by SAR Helicopters

Helicopter Y 64

Y 64 took off from Berga at 0445 hrs, picked up a physician and a nurse from Huddinge Hospital and arrived at the scene of the accident at 0552 hrs.
The crew noticed that many rafts were searched more than once because there were no markings showing that a raft already had been examined. Therefore the crew proposed by radio that the rescue men should cut up the canopies of searched rafts.
Y 64 began to rescue three people, one in a raft, one lying in the water tied to the raft and one lifeless entangled in the raft's sea anchor. The helicopter winched down its rescue man to the person in the water. Although the winch wire failed, the rescue man managed to raise him. The next to be lifted up was the man in the raft. He was not wearing a lifejacket. He fell into the water just before gaining the helicopter. The rescue man jumped after him and succeeded in grasping him. The winch now failed totally and another helicopter, Y 74, was called upon to rescue them. However, before Y 74 arrived, the person died.
Y 64 brought the survivor to Utö. The medical personnel on board were left to assist the Finnish nursing staff. As requested by the staff, Y 64 transported 20 survivors from Utö to Turku University Central Hospital. After this Y 64 got permission from the OSC to return to Berga to repair the broken winch, and landed there at 1530 hrs.

Y 74

Y 74 took off from Berga at 0546 hrs. Carrying a physician and a nurse from Huddinge Hospital, Y 74 reached the scene of the accident at 0642 hrs. Dawn had already broken. At the beginning of the operation, Y 74 found a raft containing a body with the head under water. At the same time the helicopter received a radio message that Y 64 had had to leave its rescue man in the sea. Y 74 went to assist Y 64.
Y 74 had difficulties in locating Y 64 since the OSC lacked exact information on the position of each helicopter. The Y 64 rescue man was holding onto a body, which was winched up to Y 74 with the assistance of Y 74's own rescue man. When the body had been recovered, the Y 74's rescue man fell about one metre, receiving a heavy blow from the harness to the lower part of his body. Nonetheless, he requested that he be lowered to bring up one more body. This body, however, had become badly tangled with the ropes on the raft and could not be winched up.
At this stage the pilot decided to interrupt the recovery of the body, since there might still be survivors in the sea and on rafts. Finally a spare harness was lowered to the Y 64's rescue man and used to winch him up to the helicopter. The injury to the Y 74 rescue man proved so serious that he was unable to do more. The work was continued by Y 64's rescue man.
At 0715 hrs Y 74 found a raft with three survivors, who were winched up into the helicopter. At one point the rescue man had to be brought up because his flippers had been torn off by the waves.
At 0740 hrs Y 69 reported that it, too, had had to leave its rescue man in the water because of a malfunction of the winch. In addition, this rescue man was suffering from concussion, since he had hit his head on a lifeboat that was upside-down in the water.
Y 74 went to Y 69's assistance. A hook and harness were dropped to the rescue man, and he was able to use them to get up to the helicopter.
Three survivors were hanging on to the keel of an upside-down lifeboat. Y 64's rescue man was lowered, and all three survivors were winched up. In connection with the rescue of the last of the three, a strong wave threw the rescue man against the lifeboat, injuring him. Since Y 74 now had three injured rescue men, it had to interrupt its rescue operations. In addition, fuel was running low. The six survivors, the injured rescue men and the body were taken to Huddinge Hospital, where the helicopter arrived at 0930 hrs. Y 74 returned to Berga at 0940 hrs to change crew.
Y 74 took off again from Berga at 1025 hrs with a new mechanic and two new rescue men. A fresh physician and nurse were taken on board from Huddinge Hospital. On reaching the scene of the accident, the helicopter recovered four of the five bodies on a liferaft. The fifth, which was not wearing a lifejacket, was washed overboard and disappeared in the waves.
Y 74 was then assigned a search area along the southern edge of the scene of the accident, but did not observe anything related to the accident. Y 74 proceeded to Hanko for refuelling. While in Hanko the helicopter was informed by ARCC Arlanda that it did not need to continue the search. The helicopter returned to Berga, landing at Utö on the way to leave the bodies. It landed at Berga at 1657 hrs.

 

[Steve]

Presumably terrorist-related, if that was the case.

And presumably not, if that wasn't the case. There doesn't actually appear to be a case.

Do those who advance the theory propose any explanation for why these people might have been seized?

Implications are a lot easier to weasel (note introduction of a new animal to keep the turtles company) around than facts.

 

[Mojo]

Vixen, I renew two questions that you've repeatedly avoided.

First, how is denying the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Japanese from nuclear attack any less vile than denying the Holocaust?

Second, can you name any qualified naval architects or marine engineers who agree with Björkman's claims about the Estonia?

And third, can you provide a proper citation for the “Treaty 1988 (Criminal Law)”?

Oh, what’s the use…

 

[Steve]

And third, can you provide a proper citation for the “Treaty 1988 (Criminal Law)”?

Oh, what’s the use…

Patience my friend. Each day Vixen has to re-learn how to use Google.

 

[JesseCuster]

And third, can you provide a proper citation for the “Treaty 1988 (Criminal Law)”?

Oh, what’s the use…

And 4th, Vixen, can you explain the following statement, particularly the highlighted part?

A boat is only a half circle in shape, thus if port is at 45° and starboard at 135°, it is indeed standing perpendicular to the deck and now parallel with the water's surface when turned 90°

 

[Axxman300]

This may come as a shock, but Vixen has it wrong.

Sweden didn't "disappear" anyone. This a lie, easily verified as a lie with a minimum amount of work.

Sweden -POST 9-11 - like many European countries, has developed a shorter fuse when it comes to Middle Eastern males. In the case Vixen is bolloxing, two Egyptian men were "forcibly" returned to Egypt:

https://www.amnesty.org/en/documents/mde12/006/2002/en/

Depending on which side is covering the case, the men were either dissidents claiming asylum in Sweden, or members of a "violent extremist group".

Either way, they were no "disappeared", just sent back to Egypt where they were probably beaten while in jail:

https://www.therenditionproject.org.uk/prisoners/agiza_elzery.html

And everyone's mad at Sweden...not Egypt.

There are two important key points to be made.

1. 2002 is not 1994. Actions post-911 by the US and European countries cannot be compared with pre-911 laws, procedures, or mind-sets (unless you're a moron).

2. This has nothing to do with the MS Estonia's bow-visor getting knocked off in rough seas due to poor seamanship and judgement by the ship's command.

 

[Steve]

This may come as a shock, but Vixen has it wrong.

speechless, I am!

 

[Vixen]

So the captain and other officers were terrorists?

Let's say hypothetically that the sinking of the ship was directly related to smuggling or illegal consignments, such as radioactive materials or even drugs, then the persons who allowed it must surely be held responsible? For example, as with Captain Lewry of The Herald of Free Enterprise, who allowed sloppiness and poor discipline, leading directly to that accident, in the shipowners' endeavours to secure an ultra-fast speedy turnaround at breakneck speed.

It is interesting that on 1 Sept 1994 Finland brought in a new law about the transportation of dangerous substances and chemicals*, so there must have been concerns about this issue that needed to be addressed. As Finand's and Sweden's laws are virtually identical, I am sure the same legislation was passed in Sweden, too, to deal with the smuggling specifically from Estonia, the gateway to continental Russia which stemmed all the way down to Afghanistan.

If there were such goods on board then that is another book to throw at them

*The rationale to do with harmonising EU legislation.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Let's say hypothetically that the sinking of the ship was directly related to smuggling or illegal consignments, such as radioactive materials or even drugs, then the persons who allowed it must surely be held responsible? For example, as with Captain Lewry of The Herald of Free Enterprise, who allowed sloppiness and poor discipline, leading directly to that accident, in the shipowners' endeavours to secure an ultra-fast speedy turnaround at breakneck speed.

It is interesting that on 1 Sept 1994 Finland brought in a new law about the transportation of dangerous substances and chemicals*, so there must have been concerns about this issue that needed to be addressed. As Finand's and Sweden's laws are virtually identical, I am sure the same legislation was passed in Sweden, too, to deal with the smuggling specifically from Estonia, the gateway to continental Russia which stemmed all the way down to Afghanistan.

If there were such goods on board then that is another book to throw at them

*The rationale to do with harmonising EU legislation.

So the captain and officers were taken away secretly by the USA because they were terrorists?

 

[Vixen]

Vixen, I renew two questions that you've repeatedly avoided.

First, how is denying the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Japanese from nuclear attack any less vile than denying the Holocaust?

Second, can you name any qualified naval architects or marine engineers who agree with Björkman's claims about the Estonia?

I am honestly not interested in this person. However, I will say, that the one type of person I cannot abide, and that is 'The Denier', who denies Covid exists, denies vaccinations work, denies climate changes, denies the Holocaust, etc. There is a strong association with these groups and far-right elements with a recruitment and agitation agenda.

If as you say, there were 300,000 persons killed in Hiroshima and Nagasaki in 1945 IIRC, and Björkman is denying it, then that is obviously not right. However, I am not sure I can trust your word as you likened him to a Holocaust denier earlier, but then claimed you were only making a comparison. That was a pretty strong allegation to make.

 

[Andy_Ross]

I am honestly not interested in this person. However, I will say, that the one type of person I cannot abide, and that is 'The Denier', who denies Covid exists, denies vaccinations work, denies climate changes, denies the Holocaust, etc. There is a strong association with these groups and far-right elements with a recruitment and agitation agenda.

If as you say, there were 300,000 persons killed in Hiroshima and Nagasaki in 1945 IIRC, and Björkman is denying it, then that is obviously not right. However, I am not sure I can trust your word as you likened him to a Holocaust denier earlier, but then claimed you were only making a comparison. That was a pretty strong allegation to make.

He thinks the nuclear bombs are a hoax, he thinks the Japanese were 'in on it' with the USA.
He's mad.

 

[Vixen]

Are we still pretending not to understand what happened? We've been over this at least twice before. The Aftonbladet writeup and the JAIC report are *in agreement* about how many people Svensson rescued. The discrepancy is a figment of your own willful incomprehension.

No it isn't. The Aftonbladet and Helsingin Sanomat - and also the transcript of the Mayday exchange with Mariella, has the Swedish helicopters taking off just after 02:00, and this fits the time line of Turku MRCC finally getting through to Stockholm MRCC and their ringing Turku MRCC.

Yet JAIC has Y64 and Y74 not arriving until circa 05:00 or 06:00.

 

[JayUtah]

I am honestly not interested in this person.

Then why are you defending him? Why are you citing him as an authority you expect us all to respect? If you are going to do that, and to be honest about it, then you should take an interest in him. You say he's fully qualified in his profession and that his opinion on the matter of MS Estonia should be viewed as an expert opinion. If he's who you say he is, then you should be able to find others similarly qualified who endorse his claims.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Let's say hypothetically that the sinking of the ship was directly related to smuggling or illegal consignments, such as radioactive materials or even drugs, then the persons who allowed it must surely be held responsible?

So the authorities arrest and prosecute them for those criminal acts, right? Except here they don't. Why not?

If it's because the same authorities were in on it, why would they go after the people who were working for them instead of just continuing to keep it secret?

Is there any evidence that, say, Swedish prosecutors would have charged the officers with any smuggling offences or with transporting any illegal goods if they had turned up alive?