Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part IV

[JayUtah]

He paraphrases Mr. Justice Sheen's words, does he not?

He paraphrases Sheen, and then goes on to add his own conclusion which is not supported by evidence or by anything in Sheen's text. Sheen is not the authority for conclusions other people draw in ignorance after reading his findings.

 

[JayUtah]

By 90° it is certainly not floating om its side, it is in the final throes of turtling. (Ceteris paribus)

Your video doesn't take it that far, Vixen. As I said, naval architects are generally only interested in the GZ curve up to the critical roll angle where the righting moment reverses. There is a whole wonderful world of mathematics to the right of that on the x-axis that still happens and still contains subdomains of equilibrium depending, as you noted, on additional parameters. The man in your video doesn't consider any of them.

None of this supports your claim that a ship that rolls more than 90° must inevitably turtle. That is your supposition.

 

[JayUtah]

Not in a car ro-ro ferry with free surface flooding, it is not.

Except, of course, for the one I cited that you answered with one of your infamous one-sentence dismissals.

 

[JesseCuster]

A boat is only a half circle in shape, thus if port is at 45° and starboard at 135°

Vixen, explain the highlighted bits.

The angles we're talking about are angles of list, in that context, what the hell does it mean that "port is at 45° and starboard at 135°"

What is port at 45 degrees to and what is starboard at 135 degrees to? I can't make head nor tail of this entire post, I'm just highlighting this part to see if you can explain any of it.

 

[Vixen]

But it stabilised until it flooded enough to sink in the same orientation.

A vessel at 90° list is not stable by any stretch of imagination.

 

[Vixen]

Are you claiming a boat can float at a list of 180°?

A boat can only list so far at which point it stops listing and simply capsizes.

 

[Andy_Ross]

A vessel at 90° list is not stable by any stretch of imagination.

Why not?

 

[Vixen]

Why do persist in using this odd term? A scientist (such as yourself ) should be stickler for accuracy in their communications. The correct term you should be using is *capsize*. As has previously been pointed out turtles have no propensity for turning upside down.

I say turtled because there is a majority here who believe a capsized boat can float on its side rather than succumbing to gravity or the rotational force in the opposite direction.

 

[Andy_Ross]

A boat can only list so far at which point it stops listing and simply capsizes.

What is your evidence for this?

 

[Andy_Ross]

I say turtled because there is a majority here who believe a capsized boat can float on its side rather than succumbing to gravity or the rotational force in the opposite direction.

That doesn't make sense

 

[Mojo]

Sheen clearly states the vessel had turned over more than 90°.

What do you understand by the expression “on her beam ends”?

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Vixen, explain the highlighted bits.

The angles we're talking about are angles of list, in that context, what the hell does it mean that "port is at 45° and starboard at 135°"

What is port at 45 degrees to and what is starboard at 135 degrees to? I can't make head nor tail of this entire post, I'm just highlighting this part to see if you can explain any of it.

I thought briefly I might be able to parse it but I failed. If we imagined the end-on profile of a ship was a simple semicircle (which Vixen may have meant) then a line drawn from the keel to the port rail (yeah, why, but then again why not?) would be at 45° to the vertical. So far so good. Now a line drawn from the starboard rail to... to... Nope. Stuck.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

A vessel at 90° list is not stable by any stretch of imagination.

You lack stretch.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

I say turtled because there is a majority here who believe a capsized boat can float on its side rather than succumbing to gravity or the rotational force in the opposite direction.

You mean people like Sheen.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Say Vixen, have you thought any more about your 5 by 10 foot raft?

Is it still your view that "Being flat wood, there is no righting mechanism as one would have on a boat" so that if you don't stay exactly in the middle of a raft it flips over?

I'm not even claiming I was right to say I could balance dry-shod right at the edge of it; I may have got some sums wrong. But would you like to show us that I was wrong? Would you like to prove your claim which seems to amount to "rafts are so unstable they're useless"?

 

[Mojo]

What the hell is negative gravity?

It’s what causes ships to levitate before they sink.

 

[Steve]

I say turtled because there is a majority here who believe a capsized boat can float on its side rather than succumbing to gravity or the rotational force in the opposite direction.

Ok then, scientist.

 

[GlennB]

I say turtled because there is a majority here who believe a capsized boat can float on its side rather than succumbing to gravity or the rotational force in the opposite direction.

They can float, or at least float for a time until they sink. We've all seen the videos and photos. This one is on the brink of going completely beneath the water.

 

[JayUtah]

A vessel at 90° list is not stable by any stretch of imagination.

Good thing we use math to determine that instead of imagination.

A boat can only list so far at which point it stops listing and simply capsizes.

What makes you say that?

 

[JayUtah]

I say turtled because there is a majority here who believe a capsized boat can float on its side rather than succumbing to gravity or the rotational force in the opposite direction.

"Succumbing to gravity?" What "rotational force in the opposite direction?" Your five years of physics is failing you badly here.