Discussion: Transwomen are not women (Part 7)

[LondonJohn]

You're inventing this out of whole cloth. First, you're assuming you know what the child's feelings actually are. You don't. Second, there are typically more than one way of dealing with feelings even when you express them. Third, you don't have to conform to expected gender expression in order to not transition. These aren't synonymous.



Kids are coached to claim suicidal tendencies in order to get people to accept their transition. A little skepticism about that is warranted.

And again, she was self-harming while trying to transition. If she's doing better, as the mom claims, then chances are she's doing less self-harm, which would be a pretty darn good indicator that she's having less psychological trauma now than when trying to transition.

Yeah, that all makes great sense. You're right. And every medical expert, psychologist, child psychologist, transgender counsellor/therapist.... is wrong.

I must say: you (and the child's mother) are awfully clever to have figured all of this out and put right all of the accredited and highly-experienced experts in the field. Well done!

 

[TurkeysGhost]

That was my thought as well. The story was just a little bit too perfect.

Who can say how much of it is true?

That being said, I think ST's "Look at the horrible mom" reaction is a bit bizarre. If we cast these people as literary characters, the mom who takes action in the situation described in the story would not be the bad guy.

I imagine the many parents before now who tried to "pray the gay away" or otherwise subjected their queer children to extraordinary treatment to "fix" them probably felt they were doing the right thing. It's pretty rare for people to act intentionally maliciously.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

How was her choreography?

Oh, right stupid question. Doesn't matter

How's her management strategy? Not very good, seems she can't hold her liquor and makes her employees uncomfortable through inappropriate comments that she can't recall because she "blacked out".

Fortunately there's a remedy.

 

[Ziggurat]

Yeah, that all makes great sense. You're right. And every medical expert, psychologist, child psychologist, transgender counsellor/therapist.... is wrong.

I don’t recall them all voicing any opinion about this case. Seems rather presumptuous of you to speaks for them all.

 

[Meadmaker]

No, you're right. It is a stupid question. And it doesn't matter.

Just as it wouldn't matter if she was making (say) racist comments, or homophobic ones. In your world, her skill as a choreographer would render all of that irrelevant, right?

Right.



(At least, mostly right.)

 

[Meadmaker]

I imagine the many parents before now who tried to "pray the gay away" or otherwise subjected their queer children to extraordinary treatment to "fix" them probably felt they were doing the right thing. It's pretty rare for people to act intentionally maliciously.

As noted before, I don't accept that the story is true as presented, but treating these people as characters in a story, what we have is a 13 year old girl who is expressing suicidal thoughts, is getting erotic videos of older but still underaged young women, and is being encouraged to take erotic photos of herself and sell them on the internet. They also encourage drug abuse.
They also try to influence her medical treatment and try to separate her from her family.

What the story describes is an incredibly bad situation. It's dangerous. It's damaging. It's kind of a nightmare.

In the story, the character of the mother endures and triumphs against all of that. That isn't a bad mom. You're so obsessed with your pet cause that you can't see that.

Did it really happen that way? Did it happen at all? I have no idea. What I do know is that if a kid is influenced in the way that was described in that story, a parent intervening and perservering throught that sort of bad influence would be a good mom.

 

[theprestige]

In the story, the character of the mother endures and triumphs against all of that. That isn't a bad mom. You're so obsessed with your pet cause that you can't see that.

It kind of makes sense once you start to notice just how profoundly misogynistic the TRA movement actually is. Sexual grooming and abuse of girls is a necessary step in making the desired social progress. Demonizing mothers who obstruct this progress is also necessary.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

She Supported Her Child Being Trans. So the State Separated Them. Is the case of Katee Churchill just the beginning?

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/12/she-supported-her-child-being-trans-so-they-were-separated.html

Pretty awful story. CPS tries to remove custody because the mother supports the child's trans identity. A judge dismisses the complaint because there is no evidence of abuse or maltreatment.

CPS takes the same case again, this time opting for a jury trial in a rural, conservative part of the state. This ends with custody being terminated. Custody was awarded to the father, who had a documented history of domestic violence.

Katee was vindicated — but the damage was done. As a result of the first trial, she was placed on the state’s central registry for child abuse and neglect. The registry has 300,000 people on it; some have been convicted of crimes against children, while others have been placed on it by a CPS caseworker “after finding evidence of abuse or neglect.” The registry can be accessed by the courts, various government agencies, and employers who work with children. Because she was placed on the registry, Katee is unable to work in child care, which was her main line of work prior to becoming a full-time mom.

Katee still doesn’t have primary custody of her children. “I basically get what most dads get,” Katee said of her visitation rights. She moved away from Clare County and drives more than an hour each way to pick up her kids every other weekend. This summer, Chris was charged with possession or use of a firearm while under the influence of drugs. He declined to comment for this story.

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/12/she-supported-her-child-being-trans-so-they-were-separated.html

More grist for the transphobic mill.

When Finn heard a journalist was writing a story about his family, he said he had something he wanted to say. “I chose to be transgender,” Finn, now 11, told me by phone. His mom, he said, “did not tell me that I couldn’t be, that I had to be — yes, she might have encouraged me, like, ‘It’s okay if you are, like, I don’t really care if you are or not.’ But I did choose. I chose. No one else. No one made me. No one forced me.”

..

When I asked him what he wanted other kids in his position to know, he said, “Hopefully, they don’t turn out like I am.” He said his stomach hurts each time he thinks about his gender, so he tries to keep his mind off it, filling it instead with the histories of famous wars and making YouTube videos.

Can't imagine what a mind-**** this must be for this poor child. He lost his mother because she supported him.

 

[Ziggurat]

More grist for the transphobic mill.

The problem with this conclusion is that you can find horrific cases of CPS abuses in cases having nothing to do with gender transition. CPS abuses are frighteningly common. The transgender spin on it is just a convenient excuse for them this time, they can easily find other excuses. And in this case, they did, the transgender issue was only one of their complaints. In fact, we don't even know how much of a role the transgender aspect (as opposed to other aspects) played in the case.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

The problem with this conclusion is that you can find horrific cases of CPS abuses in cases having nothing to do with gender transition. CPS abuses are frighteningly common. The transgender spin on it is just a convenient excuse for them this time, they can easily find other excuses. And in this case, they did, the transgender issue was only one of their complaints. In fact, we don't even know how much of a role the transgender aspect (as opposed to other aspects) played in the case.

Maybe that's why the author of the piece included a lot of context. Perhaps you should read it.

Kimberly Shappley, a Texan who identified as a conservative Christian before her daughter Kai came out as trans, said she feels targeted. “It’s happening all across the United States, even in places that aren’t the Bible Belt, even in places that aren’t on the radar,” Shappley said. “There’s literally nowhere safe if you’re an out trans kid.”

Parents of trans and gender-nonconforming children are afraid their kids will be taken from them. A 2019 Family Court Review analysis of ten cases involving mothers who affirmed their child’s nonconforming identity found that, in four of the cases, mothers lost physical or legal custody of their children. In four other cases, mothers were required to share custody of their trans or gender-nonconforming child with spouses who were not affirming of their child’s identity. In Texas, a 2019 custody battle over 7-year-old trans girl Luna Younger became a lightning rod for right-wing provocateurs like Donald Trump Jr. and Senator Ted Cruz, who tweeted, “For a parent to subject such a young child to life-altering hormone blockers to medically transition their sex is nothing less than child abuse.”

This is not a one-off incident. There is a concerted push in this country to treat trans-affirming care as criminal child abuse.

 

[Matthew Best]

Supreme Court blocks gender-neutral passports

A campaigner has lost a Supreme Court case challenging the government's refusal to issue gender-neutral passports.

Christie Elan-Cane said the application process breaches human rights laws by not allowing an "X" option.

But the court said applicants' gender was "a biographical detail which can be used to confirm their identity".

Lord Reed, president of the Supreme Court, said ... "there is no legislation in the United Kingdom which recognises a non-gendered category of individuals"... and legislation "across the statute book" assumes all people can be categorised in two sexes or genders - "terms which have been used interchangeably".

At a hearing in July, Kate Gallafent QC, representing Christie Elan-Cane, told the court non-gendered people and non-binary people have to make a false declaration to get a passport. But Lord Reed said while non-gendered identity may be central to Christie Elan-Cane's private life, the designation of an identity in a passport is not "a particularly important facet of the appellant's existence or identity".

 

[Ziggurat]

This is not a one-off incident. There is a concerted push in this country to treat trans-affirming care as criminal child abuse.

Your conclusions are not warranted. Custody disputes routinely get ugly, even without gender issues. And nothing about the summary provided actually indicates that gender identity issues were a deciding factor in awarding custody to anyone. It's also entirely possible that a parent would fabricate gender transition in the child in order to try to maintain custody. People do horrible **** like that all the time under these sorts of conditions.

 

[d4m10n]

And every medical expert, psychologist, child psychologist, transgender counsellor/therapist.... is wrong.

Among the most salient scientific questions facing the mother in that (possibly true) account are the base rates at which gender nonconforming adolescents eventually come to accept their bodies without medical intervention versus the rate of persistent gender dysphoria^WP which requires treatment. I'd be very interested to hear what expert child psychologists have to say on this issue, if you happen to have that information close to hand.

 

[Matthew Best]

British choreographer quits after investigation into her bigoted comments is launched.

https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2021/12/11/rosie-kay-dancers-trans-non-binary/

TERFs take another L. Sucks to suck.

Not sure why you're bringing this case up yet again. I posted it a few days ago here:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=13676848#post13676848

I guess nobody reads my links.

 

[Meadmaker]

He lost his mother because she supported him.

Him?

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Not sure why you're bringing this case up yet again. I posted it a few days ago here:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=13676848#post13676848

I guess nobody reads my links.

How embarrassing, apologies

 

[Meadmaker]

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/12/she-supported-her-child-being-trans-so-they-were-separated.html

Pretty awful story. CPS tries to remove custody because the mother supports the child's trans identity. A judge dismisses the complaint because there is no evidence of abuse or maltreatment.

CPS takes the same case again, this time opting for a jury trial in a rural, conservative part of the state. This ends with custody being terminated. Custody was awarded to the father, who had a documented history of domestic violence.



https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/12/she-supported-her-child-being-trans-so-they-were-separated.html

More grist for the transphobic mill.



Can't imagine what a mind-**** this must be for this poor child. He lost his mother because she supported him.

Reading the article, what I see is a severely messed up set of parents with a whole lot of issues on both sides. From the article, I certainly can't figure out who was a worse choice to get custody, because I don't see any good choices. I would think the incident with the gun that was described would be pretty close to an automatic disqualification, but apparently not. To me, that actually suggests there is stuff missing from the article.

I see, "I chose to be transgender.", which is kind of a red flag that something funky is going on with the trans stuff.

ETA: In the end, I certainly do not trust the recommendations of psychologists, but I don't trust anyone else's either, when there is so little time available to do proper evaluations. Court appointed psychologists and social workers are probably the best you are going to get, so I think their judgement, however poor it is, has to be what courts go on. It's not a good system, but it's the best we've got. The fact that a psychologist specifically said that the kid was not gender dysphoric suggests some sort of deeper problem to me. It could just be a prevailing attitude in Cass County, Michigan, or maybe the guy actually understood transgender issues and made an accurate diagnosis. I have no way of knowing.

 

[ponderingturtle]

I can explain why a heterosexual man outright refusing to date black women is different from the same man refusing to date other men (although not necessarily racist).

Can you explain why a lesbian outright refusing to date transwomen is different from the same lesbian refusing to date men?

Well she is apparently required to date trans men because they are really women after all. Hope she like beards.

 

[ponderingturtle]

How's that compare to the number of trans people that kill themselves, become homeless, or otherwise suffer because of anti-trans hostility? Feel free to quote the data

Or do they not matter, because they're trans?

Yes but do they really see those as bad things or progress against the enemy?

 

[ponderingturtle]

That was my thought as well. The story was just a little bit too perfect.

Who can say how much of it is true?

That being said, I think ST's "Look at the horrible mom" reaction is a bit bizarre. If we cast these people as literary characters, the mom who takes action in the situation described in the story would not be the bad guy.

Ah yes and of course the trans girl who jumped in front of the truck it had nothing to do with the bullying that her parents were giving her. They even got her misgendered in all the news stories.

https://www.cnn.com/2014/12/31/us/ohio-transgender-teen-suicide/index.html

At least they never had to accept their daughters gender. That is a win for them.