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Discussion: Transwomen are not women (Part 7)

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Ziggurat said:
Have you considered the possibility that you're wrong?

There's an obvious caveat that we don't know how much of the author's story is true, we have nothing other than their word about any of what happened. In the absence of any confirmation or refutation, we pretty much have to either take it as true, or just disregard it entirely (if we don't trust them, then we can't even know the daughter even exists).

But as recounted, the child never showed any indication of having anything other than a gender identity matching their sexual identity until shortly before they tried to transition. That's in stark contrast to the usual narrative of trans people (including Boudicca90 in this thread) whose transitions have been stable long term. Furthermore, it shows all the hallmarks of social contagion. The probability that not one girl out of this group was cisgender heterosexual is pretty much zero. And regardless of your opinion of this girl's "true" gender identity, the sexual grooming and pornography is way beyond the pale, and absolutely had to be shut down, hard and fast.

I think it's much more likely that this girl dodged a bullet thanks to her parents, and that she will recognize that when she grows up.
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Perhaps. If you want to talk "hallmarks", this story has more red flags than a North Korean military parade.

The parents describes draconian social isolation and snooping, near 24 hr lack of privacy (seriously, sitting alongside during zoom school), frustration that the school teachers would not police her child's behavior strictly enough, and doctor shopping "out of state" for a sufficiently anti-trans shrink. After a year and a half of this "utter hell", the child has changed their behavior.

Anything is possible, but it strikes me as far more likely that the child has accepted that their parents cannot be trusted, their home is not safe, and it's best to keep their head down for the time being.

They wouldn't be the first queer kid to decide hiding in the closet was the best way to deal with bigoted parents, though this strategy can be difficult and often has tragic outcomes.
 
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SuburbanTurkey said:
Perhaps. If you want to talk "hallmarks", this story has more red flags than a North Korean military parade.

The parents describes draconian social isolation and snooping, near 24 hr lack of privacy (seriously, sitting alongside during zoom school), frustration that the school teachers would not police her child's behavior strictly enough, and doctor shopping "out of state" for a sufficiently anti-trans shrink. After a year and a half of this "utter hell", the child has changed their behavior.

Anything is possible, but it strikes me as far more likely that the child has accepted that their parents cannot be trusted, their home is not safe, and it's best to keep their head down for the time being.

They wouldn't be the first queer kid to decide hiding in the closet was the best way to deal with bigoted parents, though this strategy can be difficult and often has tragic outcomes.
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Have you given any thought at all to detransitioners?

Or are they just more "anecdotes" that don't matter? Or perhaps it's that the overwhelming majority of detransitioners are females, and that's why they don't matter?
 
Emily's Cat said:
Have you given any thought at all to detransitioners?

Or are they just more "anecdotes" that don't matter? Or perhaps it's that the overwhelming majority of detransitioners are females, and that's why they don't matter?
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How's that compare to the number of trans people that kill themselves, become homeless, or otherwise suffer because of anti-trans hostility? Feel free to quote the data

Or do they not matter, because they're trans?
 
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SuburbanTurkey said:
How's that compare to the number of trans people that kill themselves...
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Have you seen data on rates of suicidality before and after gender-affirming treatment? You seem to be implying that such treatment drives it down significantly relative to an untreated but otherwise similarly situated control group. I assume this must be true, since otherwise it makes rather little sense to invoke the spectre of suicide when discussing the issue of transition.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
Perhaps. If you want to talk "hallmarks", this story has more red flags than a North Korean military parade.

The parents describes draconian social isolation and snooping, near 24 hr lack of privacy (seriously, sitting alongside during zoom school), frustration that the school teachers would not police her child's behavior strictly enough, and doctor shopping "out of state" for a sufficiently anti-trans shrink. After a year and a half of this "utter hell", the child has changed their behavior.

Anything is possible, but it strikes me as far more likely that the child has accepted that their parents cannot be trusted, their home is not safe, and it's best to keep their head down for the time being.

They wouldn't be the first queer kid to decide hiding in the closet was the best way to deal with bigoted parents, though this strategy can be difficult and often has tragic outcomes.
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I think, based on reading the whole article, not just your selection, that it's true that the daughter was being preyed on and it's possible she was adopting a lifestyle to match her cool new friends.

I also think that a lot of the parents actions were bigoted.

These are not contradictory positions. Sometimes there are no good guys.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
How's that compare to the number of trans people that kill themselves, become homeless, or otherwise suffer because of anti-trans hostility? Feel free to quote the data

Or do they not matter, because they're trans?
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Pretend you're an ethical doctor for a few minutes. A young female, on the cusp of puberty, comes to you and says that they identify as transgender. Let's be very generous, and say there's an 80% chance that they are genuinely severely dysphoric. There's a 20% chance that they are confused, or they have other underlying trauma or neuro-atypicalities that are driving their belief.

How do you choose to treat them?

1) Immediately affirm their belief about their gender and start them on puberty blockers and a pathway to surgical intervention. Bear in mind that there's a 20% chance that they are mistaken about their identity, and that this treatment will leave them permanently altered: sterile, with a beard, and with their healthy breast tissue removed or never grown.

2) Completely reject their belief about their gender and refuse to treat them at all. Bear in mind that there's an 80% chance that they're genuinely dysphoric, and there's a 50% chance that they may consider suicide, and a 50% chance of them acting on those thoughts. For the less mathy, that's an 80% x 50% x 50% = 20% chance of them attempting suicide.

3) Engage in talk therapy with a high awareness of the risk of suicidality, try to get to the root of their identity and make sure it's persistent while they go through a normal puberty, and if they still persist in their gender identity, start them on hormone therapy once their puberty is mostly complete.

Which of those seems like the most ethical and reasonable approach for a doctor to take, the one that minimizes the potential harm to all patients?
 
Emily's Cat said:
Pretend you're an ethical doctor for a few minutes. A young female, on the cusp of puberty, comes to you and says that they identify as transgender. Let's be very generous, and say there's an 80% chance that they are genuinely severely dysphoric. There's a 20% chance that they are confused, or they have other underlying trauma or neuro-atypicalities that are driving their belief.

How do you choose to treat them?

1) Immediately affirm their belief about their gender and start them on puberty blockers and a pathway to surgical intervention. Bear in mind that there's a 20% chance that they are mistaken about their identity, and that this treatment will leave them permanently altered: sterile, with a beard, and with their healthy breast tissue removed or never grown.

2) Completely reject their belief about their gender and refuse to treat them at all. Bear in mind that there's an 80% chance that they're genuinely dysphoric, and there's a 50% chance that they may consider suicide, and a 50% chance of them acting on those thoughts. For the less mathy, that's an 80% x 50% x 50% = 20% chance of them attempting suicide.

3) Engage in talk therapy with a high awareness of the risk of suicidality, try to get to the root of their identity and make sure it's persistent while they go through a normal puberty, and if they still persist in their gender identity, start them on hormone therapy once their puberty is mostly complete.

Which of those seems like the most ethical and reasonable approach for a doctor to take, the one that minimizes the potential harm to all patients?
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If I'm the doctor the transphobe mother sought out, I treat them as mentally diseased, mislead perverts and encourage them to push their feelings deep, deep down and conform with the expected gender expression. Maybe they kill themselves later on or otherwise have deeply seeded psychological trauma, but I got paid so who gives a crap.
 
TomB said:
I think, based on reading the whole article, not just your selection, that it's true that the daughter was being preyed on and it's possible she was adopting a lifestyle to match her cool new friends.

I also think that a lot of the parents actions were bigoted.

These are not contradictory positions. Sometimes there are no good guys.
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No idea how you'd come to that conclusion, since the article is clearly filtered through the perspective of an obviously transphobic parent. Hard to say what the child really feels, though the behavior the mother admits too is pretty extreme.

Interesting that the mother doesn't really explore why the child had suicidal thoughts when first announcing that they might be trans. Surely it couldn't be because this openly transphobic had an extremely negative reaction.
 
British choreographer quits after investigation into her bigoted comments is launched.

Rosie Kay, 45, resigned from her own dance company Tuesday (7 December) after two investigations were launched by trustees over the past four months.

...


“She abused her power as our boss. Furthermore, she is now using her power as someone that has a louder voice than we can hope for.”

One dancer, who is non-binary, said that Kay asked them “repeated questions” that “stepped into micro-aggression territory, then into something more potent”.

“She was asking us to justify our existence,” they told the public broadcaster, “asking people to confirm their genitalia”. Kay also reportedly “refused to use dancers’ correct pronouns”.

“Rosie is denying that a trans, non-binary person can exist,” the letter said, “this is transphobia.”

“Rosie spoke about ‘the cake of rights’ and stated women have fought for their slice of rights and now men pretending to be women want a portion of that slice,” the letter continued.

“This is a deeply offensive analogy and due to the fact that two trans non-binary people had a seat at the table, it felt very pointed.”
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https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2021/12/11/rosie-kay-dancers-trans-non-binary/

TERFs take another L. Sucks to suck.
 
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SuburbanTurkey said:
Maybe they kill themselves later on or otherwise have deeply seeded psychological trauma, but I got paid so who gives a crap.
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You have once again implied that gender-affirmative therapy reduces suicidality (compared to no medical intervention) and once again cited no science to bolster the claim.
 
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SuburbanTurkey said:
Perhaps. If you want to talk "hallmarks", this story has more red flags than a North Korean military parade.
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So many red flags that I'm calling this a straight up work of fiction, It's a conservative fantasy with the moral of the story being that the firm hand of discipline can overcome pretty much anything.

Her Daughter and friends went through Teen talk ? That outfit that doesn't operate outside Manitoba ? Then she distanced herself from those old friends in the next paragraph ? Oh please.

Wonder how "mom" got all those secret passwords to those secret social media accounts, spyware ?

Anyways, it was good for lulz.
 
Stout said:
So many red flags that I'm calling this a straight up work of fiction, It's a conservative fantasy with the moral of the story being that the firm hand of discipline can overcome pretty much anything.

Her Daughter and friends went through Teen talk ? That outfit that doesn't operate outside Manitoba ? Then she distanced herself from those old friends in the next paragraph ? Oh please.

Wonder how "mom" got all those secret passwords to those secret social media accounts, spyware ?

Anyways, it was good for lulz.
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She probably got the passwords by way of coercion, something that is pretty easy for parents to do if they don't really care that much about their children.

ETA: You seem incredulous that an overbearing parent wouldn't employ spyware, which is not at all uncommon.
 
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SuburbanTurkey said:
She probably got the passwords by way of coercion, something that is pretty easy for parents to do if they don't really care that much about their children.

ETA: You seem incredulous that an overbearing parent wouldn't employ spyware, which is not at all uncommon.
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She did care about her child, she cared so, so much even with the forces of greater society arrayed against her...she truly cared, so so much.

The article is overdone, like the sentence above and makes dear old mom appear like some sort of superhero who took on the forces of evil and won.
 
Stout said:
She did care about her child, she cared so, so much even with the forces of greater society arrayed against her...she truly cared, so so much.

The article is overdone, like the sentence above and makes dear old mom appear like some sort of superhero who took on the forces of evil and won.
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That was my thought as well. The story was just a little bit too perfect.

Who can say how much of it is true?

That being said, I think ST's "Look at the horrible mom" reaction is a bit bizarre. If we cast these people as literary characters, the mom who takes action in the situation described in the story would not be the bad guy.
 
Meadmaker said:
That was my thought as well. The story was just a little bit too perfect.

Who can say how much of it is true?

That being said, I think ST's "Look at the horrible mom" reaction is a bit bizarre. If we cast these people as literary characters, the mom who takes action in the situation described in the story would not be the bad guy.
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Yep....from the girliest of girlie girls to a (figurative) monster who lived in a figurative cave. I wouldn't have been surprised to see a possession and exorcist narrative unfold at the end of that story.

Mom should have the talk about sexual predators with her daughter the minute she gave her unsupervised internet access.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
The parents describes draconian social isolation and snooping, near 24 hr lack of privacy (seriously, sitting alongside during zoom school)
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:confused: School isn't private to begin with.

Anything is possible, but it strikes me as far more likely that the child has accepted that their parents cannot be trusted, their home is not safe, and it's best to keep their head down for the time being.
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I doubt it. This is a child who was engaging in self harm. People who do that cannot "keep their head down for the time being". Their pain manifests. If this girl were really undergoing the silent torture you seem to think she is going through, then what do you think would happen with those incidents of self-harm? They would go up. And a parent who already knows that their child has been self-harming isn't going to miss that it's still going on, or that it's increasing. That parent isn't going to think the child is getting better.

Let's flip it around for a moment. Do you acknowledge that there are people who transitioned that should not have done so? Do you accept the testimony of detransitioners about what their personal experience was like? Do you believe them when they say that they wish someone had stopped them from transitioning in the first place?

If so, what do you think it would look like if someone who wanted to transition but shouldn't actually has someone stopping them from transitioning?
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
If I'm the doctor the transphobe mother sought out, I treat them as mentally diseased, mislead perverts and encourage them to push their feelings deep, deep down and conform with the expected gender expression.
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You're inventing this out of whole cloth. First, you're assuming you know what the child's feelings actually are. You don't. Second, there are typically more than one way of dealing with feelings even when you express them. Third, you don't have to conform to expected gender expression in order to not transition. These aren't synonymous.

Maybe they kill themselves later on or otherwise have deeply seeded psychological trauma, but I got paid so who gives a crap.
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Kids are coached to claim suicidal tendencies in order to get people to accept their transition. A little skepticism about that is warranted.

And again, she was self-harming while trying to transition. If she's doing better, as the mom claims, then chances are she's doing less self-harm, which would be a pretty darn good indicator that she's having less psychological trauma now than when trying to transition.
 
Meadmaker said:
How was her choreography?

Oh, right stupid question. Doesn't matter
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No, you're right. It is a stupid question. And it doesn't matter.

Just as it wouldn't matter if she was making (say) racist comments, or homophobic ones. In your world, her skill as a choreographer would render all of that irrelevant, right?

:rolleyes:
 
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