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Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part IV

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JayUtah said:
Such as? Examples, please.
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There is a big difference between someone who claims:

  • the Royal Family are reptiles
  • there are elite overloards who control the world and live underground in a discreet chamber
  • Jesus married disciple Mary, they had offspring and X, Y and Z are descendants of same.
  • Humans are really Thetans from another planet.
  • The covid vaccine has been designed by Bill Gates to insert a silicon chip into you so that your GPS can be tracked.

And someone stating a matter of fact that a new investigation into the Estonia was going to be carried out in July and September 2021.

Not 1963 (Kennedy) the Moon Landing (1969) or 9/11 (2001) but genuine CURRENT affairs in 2021 as a matter of fact.
 
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Vixen said:
Safer than being 80m down.
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50 meters is well below the safe depth for air and well in to nitrogen narcosis territory. Recommended gas for 50 metre dive is 23/40 Trinidad that is(23% oxygen – 40% helium – 37% nitrogen).
 
Vixen said:
There is a big difference...
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Still not answering my question. What key part of the definition of a conspiracy theory is missing in your presentation? What would we need to add to it in order to make it a conspiracy theory?

And someone stating a matter of fact that a new investigation into the Estonia was going to be carried out in July and September 2021.
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You have stated that, of course. But that's not all you have stated. This thread contains much more theorization from you than simply the announcement that a new investigation was to take place.
 
Vixen said:
What is being ascertained is whether it is possible for someone to still be alive in an air pocket. A Russian institute claimed it was possible and offered their specialised equipment to help rescue such persons. Bear in mind, this was still within two days of the accident.
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Where did they claim it was possible? If they don’t know that at that atmospheric air is to deadly they aren’t much good.
 
Vixen said:
An incident being 'classified' does not make it a conspiracy. For example, there was an incident in 1987 when a Finnair pilot saw what looked like a missile flying in front of it. This became classified information. Years later, in 2014, the information was declassified.

If someone had started a thread in Current Affairs about this sighting by the Finnair pilots in 1987, does that to your mind make it a conspiracy theory?

I am guessing you do not know the difference between someone 'what-iffing' (are there aliens?) and something that has its roots in fact.

wiki

The people most likely to feel threatened by such facts are probably those who rely heavily on mass media (Rupert Murdoch, Fox News, etc) to verify something before they will accept it as true. By the same means they vote for who the mass media tell them to vote for and hate or love whoever they are told to hate or love by that same media.

In short, it is not a virtue to disparage anything that not 'official', as you seem to believe it is.
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Wild speculation about how it was a mission launched by Russian would make it a conspiracy theory.
 
Vixen said:
The people most likely to feel threatened by such facts are probably those who rely heavily on mass media (Rupert Murdoch, Fox News, etc) to verify something before they will accept it as true.
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As opposed to highly reliable sources like Anders Björkman.

My analysis of your claims is not based on being spoon-fed by the media, but rather upon decades of professional experience, following licensure and many years of academic preparation. Others challenging your claims are basing their objections not on media inculcation, but also their own life experiences. Calling your critics media-addled, for no reason, doesn't really help you make a better case.

In short, it is not a virtue to disparage anything that not 'official', as you seem to believe it is.
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I made no such claim. My claim is that challenges to a narrative are still required to be based on verifiable fact, sound principles, and defensible reasoning. If a challenge is mounted in ignorance, it's proper to call that what it is, regardless of whether a better challenge could be mounted by someone else on better grounds. Not everyone who challenges the conventional narrative is, by that token, the better investigator or has reached a conclusion better supported by evidence.
 
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Vixen said:
And someone stating a matter of fact that a new investigation into the Estonia was going to be carried out in July and September 2021.
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You've done a LOT more than merely state that there's a new investigation. Otherwise the thread wouldn't be thousands of pages long.

You've told lots of tall tales about rogue KGB agents, Spetsnaz, Bill Clinton, Vladimir Putin, accidental collisions with British submarines escorting the Estonia, accidental collision with Swedish submarines escorting the Estonia, Russian minisubs attaching mines to the Estonia in the middle of a storm, Russian minisubs firing limited range torpedos at the Estonia, radioactive waste dissolving the bow lock mechanism, drug dealers pushing off a truck with 40 tonnes of heroin in the middle of a storm, crew members being disappeared and flown off to secret trials on CIA rendition flights, submarines slinking off into the night after rescuing conspirators from the Estonia, wheeled submarines maybe being involved (!), the bow lock mechanism being destroyed by detonation charges, detonation charges and detcord being left on the ship and visible in videos, etc. etc.

That's some of the nonsense you've put forward in this thread. Do you really need to know why a thread suggesting all the above either happened or might have happened related to the Estonia is pushing conspiracy theories? :confused:
 
Vixen said:
The Russian Baltic Fleet has dominated the Baltic for exactly 300 years, since Charles XII snatched defeat from the jaws of victory at Poltava in 1721. Hitherto, the Baltic region had been controlled variously by the Danes and then the Swedes, ever since the days of the eleventh century Teutonic Knights and Livonian Brothers of the Sword, a bunch of Baltic Germans who expanded in the Baltic lands. Sweden lost Livonia (modern day Estonia, Latvia and a part of Lithuania) to Peter the Great, at Poltava, and its only other participation in war in recent memory was with those pesky Norwegians in 1788.

Thus, from King Christian I, Ivan the Terrible (Ivan IV) to Adolphus Vasa to Peter the Great, encompassing the Thirty Years War and the Northern War and all kinds of skirmishes in between, culminating in WWI and WWII, the control of the Baltic Sea has been a matter of great importance and firece competition. Hence, you might have an understanding of how incredibly powerful the Russian Baltic Fleet is and has become.

If the Russians know about rescuing people from air pockets and claim they have the specialised technology to do so, then I for one believe them.

Maybe it is nonsense but when people's lives are at stake there would have been no harm in trying, especially in the earliest hours.
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What ‘earliest hours’? It took two days to locate the ship at 80 meters. Atmospheric air is toxic at that depth. Do the Russians not know this?

If they sank it and wanted no survivors, why would they offer to rescue people?

What does Charles the XII have to do with it?
Tell us about the power of the Baltic Fleet and how it’s power has anything to do with breathing gasses at 80 meters.
 
Vixen said:
There is a big difference between someone who claims:

  • the Royal Family are reptiles
  • there are elite overloards who control the world and live underground in a discreet chamber
  • Jesus married disciple Mary, they had offspring and X, Y and Z are descendants of same.
  • Humans are really Thetans from another planet.
  • The covid vaccine has been designed by Bill Gates to insert a silicon chip into you so that your GPS can be tracked.

And someone stating a matter of fact that a new investigation into the Estonia was going to be carried out in July and September 2021.

Not 1963 (Kennedy) the Moon Landing (1976) or 9/11 (2001) but genuine CURRENT affairs in 2021 as a matter of fact.
Click to expand...

But you also mentioned Russian ninjas, torpedoes, submarines from several countries, limpet mines, www mines, assassins, sabotage, explosive charges, burning trucks, crewmen opening the bows, secret dive controllers, Israel, Nuclear waste, truck loads of US Marines and Clinton controlling Sweden as ‘puppets’
 
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JayUtah said:
Still not answering my question. What key part of the definition of a conspiracy theory is missing in your presentation? What would we need to add to it in order to make it a conspiracy theory?



You have stated that, of course. But that's not all you have stated. This thread contains much more theorization from you than simply the announcement that a new investigation was to take place.
Click to expand...

Not MY theorizations, as you so quaintly call it, but respected experts in their field. For example, Royal Navy military explosives expert and elite diver, Brian Braidwood, Dr.Eng. Hans Hoffmeister, sea captains Jan-Thore Thörnroos, Esa Mäkelä (On Scene Commander of Estonia), State Prosecutor Margus Kurm, Consulate General of Estonia in Saint Petersburg, Carl Eric Reintamm, etc., the list goes on and on. You cannot handwave away these persons' expert well-considered thoughtful opinions.

I have stated my opinion when asked, with IMV beside it, together with an expansion of why and how I reached that view ( compare and contrast to those attacking the arguer instead of the topic).
 
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JesseCuster said:
You've done a LOT more than merely state that there's a new investigation. Otherwise the thread wouldn't be thousands of pages long.

You've told lots of tall tales about rogue KGB agents, Spetsnaz, Bill Clinton, Vladimir Putin, accidental collisions with British submarines escorting the Estonia, accidental collision with Swedish submarines escorting the Estonia, Russian minisubs attaching mines to the Estonia in the middle of a storm, Russian minisubs firing limited range torpedos at the Estonia, radioactive waste dissolving the bow lock mechanism, drug dealers pushing off a truck with 40 tonnes of heroin in the middle of a storm, crew members being disappeared and flown off to secret trials on CIA rendition flights, submarines slinking off into the night after rescuing conspirators from the Estonia, wheeled submarines maybe being involved (!), the bow lock mechanism being destroyed by detonation charges, detonation charges and detcord being left on the ship and visible in videos, etc. etc.

That's some of the nonsense you've put forward in this thread. Do you really need to know why a thread suggesting all the above either happened or might have happened related to the Estonia is pushing conspiracy theories? :confused:
Click to expand...

They are not tall stories. These are experts with carefully considered viewpoints.

Perhaps the real fault lies with the JAIC issuing such an obviously defective report?

That thought has never occurred to you.
 
Captain_Swoop said:
What ‘earliest hours’? It took two days to locate the ship at 80 meters. Atmospheric air is toxic at that depth. Do the Russians not know this?

If they sank it and wanted no survivors, why would they offer to rescue people?

What does Charles the XII have to do with it?
Tell us about the power of the Baltic Fleet and how it’s power has anything to do with breathing gasses at 80 meters.
Click to expand...

You can be a hostile nation and still go to the rescue of a vessel in distress. As witness the Kursk disaster. Several western nations immediately offered assistance.
 
Captain_Swoop said:
But you also mentioned Russian ninjas, torpedoes, submarines from several countries, limpet mines, www mines, assassins, sabotage, explosive charges, burning trucks, crewmen opening the bows, secret dive controllers, Israel, Nuclear waste, truck loads of US Marines and Clinton controlling Sweden as ‘puppets’
Click to expand...

The fact it is beyond your ken does not make it a conspiracy theory.
 
Vixen said:
Not MY theorizations, as you so quaintly call it, but respected experts in their field.
Click to expand...
What "respected expert in their field" thinks that the Estonia might have been sank by a Russian minisub firing limited range torpedoes?
What "respected expert in their field" thinks that the Estonia might have been sank by radioactive waste dissolving the bow door locks?

What "respected expert in their field" thinks that the crew might have been trying to smuggled 40 tonnes worth of heroin into Sweden and tried to open the bow doors and push a truck off the ship during a storm to prevent their drugs from being found?

Have these people got names? Telling me to go look back through the thread for names is an automatic fail. You should know where you got these expert hypotheses from.
 
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