Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part III

[Axxman300]

Axxman300 claimed one of the engineers saw water on the car deck. That would be newbie Kadak, who retracted his claim as the car deck camera does not show the car deck floor and he was never there. It is accepted he may have seen 30 cm of water in a corner.

It was obviously enough water to make him get the hell out of the engine room, and topside ASAP.

The man isn't alive by accident.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

There is a very good chance that the visor was still hanging off when the ship sank.



There is zero evidence the bow visor fell off at 0115 as the JAIC claim. That is purely hypothetical.

There is no chance the visor was still on the ship when it sank as it fell much too far away. This is evidence the KAIC were right and you are wrong.

 

[abaddon]

Yet you do know it was thrown into the sea despite there being no photograph of that either. Nice double standard you have there.

Odd, that.

Presumed by you. Because the only place you can find anything that resembled a towel is in a swimming pool, right?

Don't be silly. Nobody ever brings a towel to a swimming pool. Ever. Why would anyone need a towel at a swimming pool? Have you never been to a swimming pool? Not a single person there had a towel.

Think of Zaphod Beeblebrox. Now there is a frood who knew where his towel was.

 

[ferd burfle]

That is not an analysis that is a descriptive narrative.

Yes, a narrative supported by analysis that leads to a logical conclusion. None of what you've presented leads to a narrative.

You have an amorphous collection of factoids, many of which are mutually exclusive or flat-ass wrong, that you endlessly gallop between. But the goal of a conspiracy theory isn't to reach a conclusion, is it? The goal is to prolong the discussion and thereby give the impression of a controversy where none exists.

 

[Axxman300]

President Clinton was keen to portray himself as peace maker extraordinaire of the Middle East. Let's face it it is this man's vanity that the causes of the Estonia accident were deemed 'classified' (I believe for 70 years). Just to save this vain man's face.

Okay, cool, post a link to that executive order stating that, by order of the President of the United States, the facts surrounding the Estonia's sinking must remain classified.

Then post a link to whichever treaty, or international case-law wherein the USA can tell any foreign country what to do, or the law that binds Sweden to comply with anything the US demands.

Otherwise you're confusing standard rules of secrecy with your delusional proclivities for conspiracy. There is an automatic 20 rule for secret, and top-secret information after which the information is reviewed. If elements of the secret are still current, the secrets remain secret. The US secrecy likely has something to do with our covert activity in the Balitc, which is ongoing.

 

[Axxman300]

As POTUS Clinton was presumed head of the CIA (of course his Generals report to him and he does as they say). At the time Clinton was a great peace ambassador. Being potentially caught smuggling stuff to Israel wasn't something it wanted coming out; it just did what it normally does and called it 'classified'.


Image intact.

Oh, you need to stop.

In 1994, Clinton had been in office for two years, and a month later would be handed a crushing defeat in the form of the Republican Revolution that saw Congress overrun with the opposition party.

The President is not the head of the CIA, it's structure is insulated from the political appointees who come and go.

And no, Generals do not blindly follow the orders of the President of the United States.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Circular logic. Had explosives been applied to the for'ard bulkead then the thing would have fallen off anyway.

The Estonia bow visor did not fail in the way the JAIC said according to Hamburg University. They cannot both be right. One of these two parties is making a specious claim.

Explosives are CT nonsense. The report appears to disagree about the particular order in which the three locks snapped. There is nothing in that difference of opinion which indicates sabotage.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Don't you need to prove the bow visor was stressed by wave in the first place? On the stroke of Swedish midnight, too.

The same damage to its sister ship and the similar damage in a dozen ferries shows as clear as day that the bow visor was stressed by the waves. What bit don't you get?

 

[abaddon]

<snip for brevity>
From 4 to 5: Even if there is a conspiracy and a cover-up, that doesn't mean everything a conspiracy theorist claims is true, especially since conspiracy theorists usually support several mutually contradictory theories at once.

While I agree with what you otherwise say, this stuck out for me.

Our protagonist has variously claimed that a Swedish submarine collided with the ship or planted limpet mines or launched torpedos or the spetsnaz had a suicide mission or the US dunnit or the captain dunnit or nuclear waste dunnit or non exploding explosives dunnit or a long list of other claims. They cannot all be simultaneously true. This is not our first rodeo.

You should post more. Calm and well reasoned posts are a good thing. That is what we are here for. Most of us.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

The attaché case retrieved by Rockwater belonged to a staunch Russian Jewish Zionist who was an arms trader.

Do you have any evidence for this? And no, I don't mean the "staunch Russian Jewish Zionist" or the "arms trader" bit, I mean the "retrieved" bit.

The partial dive transcript you quoted before does not say that the diver retrieved any passengers' effects. Only that he found the case, tried to read the name on it and his contact on the surface said he'd ask if anybody recognised that name.

So, do you actually know if the case was retrieved or is that just an assumption?

 

[Andy_Ross]

Do you have any evidence for this? And no, I don't mean the "staunch Russian Jewish Zionist" or the "arms trader" bit, I mean the "retrieved" bit.

The partial dive transcript you quoted before does not say that the diver retrieved any passengers' effects. Only that he found the case, tried to read the name on it and his contact on the surface said he'd ask if anybody recognised that name.

So, do you actually know if the case was retrieved or is that just an assumption?

Don't forget, the divers were getting secret orders through their secret communication devices.

 

[abaddon]

Do you have any evidence for this? And no, I don't mean the "staunch Russian Jewish Zionist" or the "arms trader" bit, I mean the "retrieved" bit.

But you should. It is rather revealing of motivation.

Pesky Jews. How could we rid ourselves of their scourge? Didn't somebody try that before?

 

[Reformed Offlian]

Jewish Zionist

I was wondering when this would come up.

 

[Steve]

I was wondering when this would come up.

Says a mouthful, huh?

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Don't forget, the divers were getting secret orders through their secret communication devices.

Maybe they also had a secret magic portal that led back to the ship so they could retrieve secret stuff secretly.

But seriously, the transcript Vixen linked described the diver looking for a name on a luggage tag on another suitcase in another cabin and (although I'd need to read it again to remind myself why) I got the distinct impression their remit was only to look for identifying items and not to disturb the passengers effects otherwise. Vixen has her rather breathless "find at all costs" newspaper claim regarding Voronin's attache case which is all very John le Carre but when they found it plainly neither the diver nor his companion on the surface recognised the name. And the transcript does not say they took the case.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

I was wondering when this would come up.

Not the first time this particular claim has surfaced. There's a lot of recycling in this thread.

 

[abaddon]

Don't forget, the divers were getting secret orders through their secret communication devices.

Yeah, I am still trying to figure out what Vixen means by that. Radio can work underwater, but only at proximate range. Otherwise you are toast as far as comms are concerned. Diver to diver? Maybe if they are proximate. Diver to ship? Not happening. It's wired comms or nothing. Not sure why some folk cannot get their head around the fact that oceans are an awful lot denser than air, but the answer may be in the question. It is all about density.

Likely, ELF will come up. That could provide two way communication, right? Nope for a shedload of reasons. Anyone could look up why ELF remains a one way transaction if they were sufficiently motivated. A shore base has no real problem wheeling out a kilometers long antenna. A sub does. Besides, the comms on such a channel cannot support voice. And ELF cannot sustain voice comms. Not even typist speed. Typists operate in the realm of words-per-minute. ELF operates at the level of letters per minute. It ain't fast and it ain't voice.

 

[Steve]

Maybe they also had a secret magic portal that led back to the ship so they could retrieve secret stuff secretly.

But seriously, the transcript Vixen linked described the diver looking for a name on a luggage tag on another suitcase in another cabin and (although I'd need to read it again to remind myself why) I got the distinct impression their remit was only to look for identifying items and not to disturb the passengers effects otherwise. Vixen has her rather breathless "find at all costs" newspaper claim regarding Voronin's attache case which is all very John le Carre but when they found it plainly neither the diver nor his companion on the surface recognised the name. And the transcript does not say they took the case.

Well of course they took it. If they had not the entire conspiracy would collapse, enabling an intrepid internet investigator on an insignificant discussion forum to expose the intricate workings of the plot to the entire world.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Yeah, I am still trying to figure out what Vixen means by that. Radio can work underwater, but only at proximate range. Otherwise you are toast as far as comms are concerned. Diver to diver? Maybe if they are proximate. Diver to ship? Not happening. It's wired comms or nothing. Not sure why some folk cannot get their head around the fact that oceans are an awful lot denser than air, but the answer may be in the question. It is all about density.

Likely, ELF will come up. That could provide two way communication, right? Nope for a shedload of reasons. Anyone could look up why ELF remains a one way transaction if they were sufficiently motivated. A shore base has no real problem wheeling out a kilometers long antenna. A sub does. Besides, the comms on such a channel cannot support voice. And ELF cannot sustain voice comms. Not even typist speed. Typists operate in the realm of words-per-minute. ELF operates at the level of letters per minute. It ain't fast and it ain't voice.

There are ultrasonic systems. I have used a full face Ocean Reef mask with their 'GSM' system. They are 'push to talk' units with around 250 meters range.

https://diving.oceanreefgroup.com/underwater-communication/

I don't know how you would use one with a full helmet though.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Yeah, I am still trying to figure out what Vixen means by that.

It's simple enough; she imagines there was a secret second controller on the dive support vessel who could talk to the diver without their voice being recorded. The site she got the idea from claims the diver had different audio feeds in each ear and also claims you can tell when the diver reacts to unheard orders, though it doesn't make it easy to find an example illustrating that claim.

It's unevidenced garbage.