Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part III

[Jack by the hedge]

ISTM that the system can be set up for left- or right- ear communication.

It is obvious that the military tactics will sometime require commands communicated from more than one person, possibly from different locations.

No. What is obvious is that you don't understand the material you are posting.

Look at the "supporting" diagram you posted with this mad claim. It shows a mono headphone feed. Look at each diver's earphones in the schematic. Do you see that a single pair of wires is fed to each diver's earphones, and the pair splits and goes to both their left and right ear? The same pair of wires that feeds the left ear also feeds the right ear. The left ear and the right ear get the same signal. There is no means of feeding a signal to one ear and not the other. There is no means of feeding two signals to a diver.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Even if the ship was pitching against headlong waves and the bow visor came off, it still requires more than the estimated (as all JAIC calculations are) 4,500tonnes-equivalent of water to sink it...

So what? Finish this thought. Do you claim that when 4,500 tons of water has flooded the ship, flooding will magically stop?

 

[Jack by the hedge]

It was held by hydraulic arms on both sides, together with the side locks. Can't get much stronger than that.

Says who? You have no clue what load each of the locks and hydraulic actuators could withstand. You are completely making this up.

 

[Vixen]

So you're selling that "Aqualung" was quadrophonic.

Gratuitous clip of Ian Anderson hopping about on one leg.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

This is where you fall flat on your face as the JAIC state clearly that the vessel was in seaworthy condition, and as certified by Bureau Veritas, the compliance regulators.

Weasel words again. You wish to imply that JAIC certified the vessel seaworthy as well as the relevant inspectors. This is false as you well know.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

The vessel was certified seaworthy.

And therefore indestructible no matter how recklessly sailed at full speed into heavy seas. Is that your claim?

 

[Vixen]

What makes you think our protagonist cares?

You know that. I know that. Some do not know that.

I had to search, but one can see these in actual operation on yooboob. Except the protagonist, who some can see none of it for reasons not defined.

Selective blindness? No idea.

At the end, I come at it as the absurdity on the radio side and you come at the absurdity from a marine perspective.

But whichever, we agree it really is absurd.

Please don't make me the various wild degrees that our proponent has claimed. Doesn't matter. None of them were maritime anyway.

I have encountered Heiwa before. No moon landings ever happened. ISS is not real. Satelites are not real. The world is flat. There are no rovers on mars. Or probes. Or orbiters. Or Jupiter, Europa, Enceladus or anywhere. Because the world is flat. Some twonk merely painted them on a backdrop. The Firmament, I suppose. And he clearly imagines.

But he must be credible on his primary degree, right? Oooo yes. He must be. Ignore the elephant in the corner, he must be right. Doesn't matter that he is bonkers and gets banned from bonkers sites. Even flatties end up banning him. Simon Shack banned him. He really is that bonkers.

But somehow, he must be accepted as vaguely credible for some inexplicable reason. He was banned from here, but one must wonder. Why do crank sites also ban him.

He is comprehensively bonkers. I have no clue what happened to him do that.

It is not nice to talk about people who can't answer back.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Not sure what a commercial diving handbook has to do with this case.

When you've just spent pages giving us all a laugh by arguing your particular expertise in standard diving procedures, what aspect do you find bewildering?

 

[Vixen]

Yes, "elite Royal Navy military explosives expert and diver" Braidwood is bound to be correct here. After all, not only was he hired by the shipyard that's potentially on the hook for a lot of money wrt it's shockingly poor design and construction of the bow visor (and is thus actively interested in "finding" alternative causes of the sinking)....

....but he's also the hero who "famously defused" the Greenpeace bomb.


Remind me: did Braidwood get a medal for that "famous" defusing episode? I imagine he must have done - it was so famous and so heroic, after all. Plus I'm sure he must have been lavishly decorated for being such an "elite expert" and all. Right?

Brian Braidwood knows better than a lawyer or a politician.

Lieutenant Commander (ret.) Brian Braidwood joined the German ‘Group of Experts’ in February 1999 as diving and explosion expert because there were rather strong indications that there might have been explosions in the foreship area and elsewhere onboard the Estonia prior to her sinking.

Lt. Commander Braidwood qualified as a Naval diver in 1957 and spent twenty-five years as an Explosive Ordnance Disposal specialist with the British Navy. This included the Defence of Ships Against Sabotage Attack, three years commanding the Far East Clearance Diving Team, and the Diving School, based in Singapore, responsible for all Diving and Explosive Ordnance Disposal, both operational and training, east of Suez. He also qualified with the Army in the Disposal of Terrorist Devices, commanded the UK Joint Service Explosive Ordnance Disposal School for three years and trained 750 students each year, ranging up to Lieutenant Colonel level, from the UK and overseas.

For the last thirteen years of service he was the Navy’s specialist for new demolition and explosive disposal equipment and techniques, which included testing commercial and military explosives and required a close liaison with many military and civilian organisations throughout the world.

EFD

Some people have principles and use their skills for the common good.

Braidwood identified a petal-shaped indentation near one of the side-locks and his expert eye suspected it had been caused by a detonation.

But of course someone on their keyboard knows better.

 

[Vixen]

No, Vixen. The bolt itself had no evidential value. It wasn't the part of the bottom lock which failed. The parts of the bottom lock which failed were the ship-side lugs.

And cut out the appeals to emotion. They have no place in this sort of discussion. You've been told about this many, many times now.







No. Educate yourself by reading my post #3181. And/or do some proper research into this matter.






What?? You don't know what you're talking about. The bottom lock was by far the most important fastening point of that bow visor. It was the direct counter to the top hinges. Once the bottom lock failed in rough seas, the entire visor was doomed to fail. Neither the side locks nor the top hinges were designed to take the stresses to which they were subjected that night once the bottom lock had failed. The bottom lock should have been designed to take those stresses, but (owing to bad design, bad construction, and bad maintenance & operation) it ended up failing in that duty.
3181

You do not know your physics. The Atlantic lock is a mere afterthought. The tension is borne almost entirely by the side locks. And the JAIC does blame the one wave for causing the whole shebang to fail. I am glad that even you can see that is simply not credible.

 

[Andy_Ross]

ISTM that the system can be set up for left- or right- ear communication.

It is obvious that the military tactics will sometime require commands communicated from more than one person, possibly from different locations.

OK so how does it work?

You do know there is a wire going from the panel to the diver, it's not a radio?

How would two people use that panel to talk to the diver using different microphones and speakers?

How would someone in a different location be able to use it?

 

[Vixen]

What do you mean 'ease the tension'?
If it is doing so little why is it important?
Once again only you are claiming a 'single wave'
Once again the bolt was inspected and found to be in good condition. Those parts that failed were brought back for further study and inspection.

Citation please of the photograph of it and who, when and how it was 'found to be in good condition'.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

What utter nonsense. To get from Tallinn to Stockholm, I am afraid it is open sea for several hours. The reason we know it didn't hit a rock (re the feeling of a top start collision reported by some survivors) is because it had not yet reached the archipelago.


As for it being the shipbuilder's fault in your view, it was designed to commute between Naantali /Turku / Helsinki and Stockholm/Umeå, just two hours of open sea (after Mariehamn, towards Sweden [which is why, geographically, the Ålands are deemed par of Finland]. The main hazard there, was getting grounded (as the Amorella did, recently) on shallow banks, with depth varying widely and wildly between 30m and 300m. From Tallinn to Stockholm, that is twelve hours of open sea. It was just 34km away from Utö, which has a Coastguard.

How is it the shipbuilder's fault in the design? Where in its journey did you expect it to 'follow the coastline'?

You appear to have decided the only potential threat to a Baltic ferry is collision and heavy seas are no threat at all. It appears you have indeed still not read that page describing a dozen previous cases of ships suffering dangerous damage at sea.

 

[Vixen]

Does this mean you think the bow visor was blown off by explosive charges?
You are giving up on the crew opening the bows?

When were the charges planted?
After the bow closed the ramp would stop anyone getting to the locks, does this mean they were planted while the bow was open and the ship was in port loading?
Why didn't the crew notice either the charges or the ninjas planting them?

I do believe all of the evidence points to sabotage. I agree with what Captains of the Mariella and Europa said.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Even if the ship was pitching against headlong waves and the bow visor came off, it still requires more than the estimated (as all JAIC calculations are) 4,500tonnes-equivalent of water to sink it. If there is an ingress of water, it either capsizes immediately (cf The Herald of Free Enterprise) or not at all. It doesn't float on its superstructure for half an hour as JAIC claim.

As the VINNOVA simulation points out, it needs a minimum of 11,000tonnes-equivalent plus 83% of the superstructure to be filled with water (that has displaced the air keeping it afloat).

What does 'float on it's superstructure' mean?

Why does it either capsize immediately or not at all?

It took over half an hour to sink, why isn't that plenty of time for water to get in to the hull and superstructure?

 

[Jack by the hedge]

You do not know your physics. The Atlantic lock is a mere afterthought. The tension is borne almost entirely by the side locks. And the JAIC does blame the one wave for causing the whole shebang to fail. I am glad that even you can see that is simply not credible.

Afterthought. LOL. You can show us a reference (or your own calculations) for this nonsense of course.

 

[Andy_Ross]

It was held by hydraulic arms on both sides, together with the side locks. Can't get much stronger than that.

Yes you can get much stronger than that, you can get a bow that is a continuous part of the hull, like the vast majority of ships.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Citation please of the photograph of it and who, when and how it was 'found to be in good condition'.

You have decided to imply the reported evidence may be deliberately falsified as raising suspicions that people lied about what they found makes your conspiracy theory look less fantastical.

No sale.

 

[Vixen]

No. What is obvious is that you don't understand the material you are posting.

Look at the "supporting" diagram you posted with this mad claim. It shows a mono headphone feed. Look at each diver's earphones in the schematic. Do you see that a single pair of wires is fed to each diver's earphones, and the pair splits and goes to both their left and right ear? The same pair of wires that feeds the left ear also feeds the right ear. The left ear and the right ear get the same signal. There is no means of feeding a signal to one ear and not the other. There is no means of feeding two signals to a diver.

I see, so US Navy SEAL's or Royal Navy divers are unable to set up communications with more than one platform.


Okaaay. We'll just ignore veteran elite expert Brian Braidwood.

 

[Vixen]

So what? Finish this thought. Do you claim that when 4,500 tons of water has flooded the ship, flooding will magically stop?

Even the JAIC had to concede this would not be enough to capsize the ship.