Meadmaker
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Yep. Agreed 100%.
Discussion: Transwomen are not women (Part 7)
- Thread starter Elaedith
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Yep. Agreed 100%.
I think you have this a little backwards.
I don't think the hyper-feminine presentation some (many?) trans women adapt is because they think that is the definition or that that makes them women. Quite the opposite.
If they are male, but identify as a woman, there is a narrower range of presentation available that will signal their identity clearly enough that others will act towards them in a manner consistent with their identity.
You said yourself in a recent post:
Today my daughter war Jeans, a t-shirt, and a baggy flannel shirt. If a trans woman wore that outfit they would look like a man dressed as men dress and no one would have a clue as to their identity and they would be treated as male.
They aren't enshrining the stereotype, they are forced into it.
I think trans men may actually have a more difficult time because women's fashion encompasses pretty much the entirety of the men's wardrobe now. There is still clothing that is distinctly women's. There is very litle in the way of clothing (or hairstyles) that is distinctly men's.
I don't know about this particular person, but I know of one trans man who played women's hockey professionally. He waited until he had retired from women's athletics before beginning hormone therapy. (Might have had top surgery while active, but I'm not sure.)
My job involves assisting young people into apprenticeships. I have met three people with female ID who identified as transmen. The first two were undergoing hormone therapy and had vestigial beards and very flat chests. The one the other day though said she was identifying as male and would “soon” start taking hormones. She, unlike the other two, had identifiable female physiology. She was also the most aggressive by far insisting that I use his newly adopted name, when she did not have any ID with the new name, which I can’t do.
Anyway, I’m not saying that there were two “genuine” transpeople and one not genuine, but I am saying that the first two would likely be more successful in their journey.
Also interesting that my experience is with people following the less travelled female to male path.
Anyway, I’m not saying that there were two “genuine” transpeople and one not genuine, but I am saying that the first two would likely be more successful in their journey.
Also interesting that my experience is with people following the less travelled female to male path.
For those interested, the trades the trans young people were in were hairdressing for the first two, and this industry has always been inclusive. The third was in baking, which to me also seems inclusive. Somehow I think a transitioning carpentry or plumbing apprentice would really struggle.
angrysoba
Philosophile
You don’t think carpentry wood work or you have doubts about the plumbing?
No. Just an observation about the unsupportive nature of certain trades.
I think there may have been a couple of puns in there
I think there may have been a couple of puns in there
Yeah I know. But as a cautious person I pretend otherwise
Anecdotally I’ve read one late-transitioning FTM welding apprentice’s account of a perfectly welcoming atmosphere. Lots of trades these days are pretty ‘if you can do it then do it.’ Partly because there’s not exactly a glut of skilled trade workers in a lot of fields.
Not trucking though, there’s too many novice truckers so nobody likes anybody.
Not trucking though, there’s too many novice truckers so nobody likes anybody.
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
What on earth are you talking about?
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
No argument at all. If sports organizations want to put a limit on the amount of testosterone a transman can take and not be considered to be using a performance enhancing drug, that's fine as well. Although my current understanding is that the amount of testosterone that transgender identified females take is at the low end of the range of normal for males, so it's unlikely to be a problem.
You reasoning for the general objection to transgender identified males participating in female sports is accurate.
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
I am somewhere in between on this.
I concede that for a transgender identified male who has NOT had facial feminization surgery, they do have to try harder to pass, and thus they do need to conform to more gendered fashions. But Patrick Swayze, Wesley Snipes, and John Leguizamo managed to pull it off in To Wong Foo, so it can certainly be done. Alex Drummond, on the other hand, has opted to wear a full beard and not even pluck their eyebrows and expect that other people will perceive them as a "woman" because they have thrown on a skirt and some jewelry. It just doesn't work.
But that's also not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the social stereotypes of females being gentle, collaborative, soft-spoken, liking pink and glitter, and being subordinate to males. It's the assumption that a kinship with those behaviors is what makes them "women".
Sherkeu
Illuminator
Meadmaker
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She must have worked harder and been more dedicated than any previous Penn swimmer. That's how she broke the record.
And she didn't just break it. The swimswam article said she "scorched" it.
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Sherkeu
Illuminator
"Scorched" is exactly right. Her teammate, Anna Kalandadze, would have broken the "pool record" (different from team record) that day for the 500m. But now, Lia Thomas also has that title, having touched the wall while the "also-ran" was still on the other side of the pool. 12.9 seconds in difference. Anna won't ever get what she deserves. What every rational person seeing it KNOWS she deserves.
Not really Lia's fault in this though. She desires to swim and made the team she identifies with and was eligible and qualified to join.
The NCAA rules allow all of this to happen. The changes needed are already in the works...they can now see more clearly where it is all heading and how it upsets their programs. (and I am perhaps being too kind to think they did not CLEARLY know exactly what would happen when more trans athletes switched to women's teams.)
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Matthew Best
Penultimate Amazing
It’s ok - I hardly think this counts as “elite” sports so it’s really not worth getting worked up about.
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Louden Wilde
Muse
One can make a case that even if they feel forced into it, they're still enshrining those stereotypes. Practically speaking , I can't see anyway to tell which males are attracted to these stereotypes (due to a paraphilia) and which feel compelled to conform to them (i.e. due gender dysphoria). In some it may be a mixture.
That being said, if you spend some time checking what TRAs post on Twitter, it seems pretty clear that are a fair amount that effectively do think that being a woman is a performance - in fact some claim that they are better at it (being women) than "cis-women".
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Louden Wilde
Muse
I'm sure many of them did (have a pretty good idea of what might happen). And I bet that some of them feel bad about it but lack the courage to speak up about it due to the success of TRAs in lumping anyone who questions gender ideology with far-right extremists. I was heartened to see that a lot of the comments on that thread were negative without being transphobic per se, as were the ones on the NYT twitter thread announcing Rachel Levine as first female of their rank. On that note, I'd be curious to hear suggestions from other thread participants on what we can do to combat gender ideology (apart from commenting in twitter - I've done that non-anonymously - but it's not obviously not the best forum for a nuanced discussion).
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