Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part III

[Here_to_learn]

Prove it, Vixen.

Supply reliable, primary-source evidence to this thread, supporting the claim you've made here.


If you cannot do that, we are fully entitled to disregard your claim in its entirety. So which of those two options would you prefer to happen?

Since I do have access to the source material, I did go back to the archives for the two swedish newspapers.

It all starts with Svenska Dagbladet SvD, that on the 11th of march 2001 has an interview with Gustav Hanuliak (GH). He was a dive advisor onboard the dive ships during the dive.

GH describes what he sees as disorganized work onboard the dive ship, especially related to what is kept and what is discarded. https://www.svd.se/arkiv/2001-03-11/4 (subscription required)

This is then followed up by Dagens Nyheter DN, that comments on the DN article with an interview with Kari Lehtola KL. https://www.dn.se/arkiv/inrikes/kastat-estonia-material-oviktigt/ KL reports that he's fine with things having been thrown back, since:

- Det var ju främst Atlantlåsets bult som man talade om den gången. Men det hade inte någon större betydelse för utredningen, för det hade mätts upp och bultens formförändringar hade dokumenterats. Dessutom hade vi tillgång till undervattensbilder av bulten.

My translation: It was mostly the Atlantic Lock bolt that was talked about at the time. But it didn't matter for the investigation, since it had been measured, and the changes to the bolt had been documented. We also have access to underwater photos of the bolt.

The DN article ends with KL being irritated with the Independent Fact Group, with the comment "they distribute a lot of "suspicions" to the media, with the hope to be able to sell their services". (My translation)

Finally - why was GH unhappy about things having been thrown back into the sea? It's explained in the SvD article. It was because he was irritated on all conspiracy theories being spread. Because GH is "fully convinced that bad welds are the cause of the accident", and that "Estonia was not exposed to any bombs and there was no conspiracy behind the accident". (my translations)

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Thanks for going back to that original material, Here_to_learn, it's refreshing to get information in the thread unfiltered through a CT website.

... Finally - why was GH unhappy about things having been thrown back into the sea? It's explained in the SvD article. It was because he was irritated on all conspiracy theories being spread.

Yes, though you can't win. Inevitably conspiracists will latch onto any now-unavailable evidence as the smoking gun, even if they have no idea what they would examine it for if they could find it. The mere fact that it was not kept attracts their suspicion.

 

[GlennB]

The bottom line is that Vixen will say whatever it takes to get past the latest objection to her bizarro claims. The business of only examining the bolt underwater and then throwing it back in the sea while it's still in the sea is unusually potty, but far from unprecedented in its bizarrosity. And she doesn't seem to notice when her latest claim contradicts previous claims.

Einstein said something like "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results". Endless pages of 'the same thing' in this thread have failed to get Vixen to budge one inch, so quitting is long overdue. Best of luck all!

**lurks**

 

[abaddon]

What conspiracy? TURSAS did their job, reported what the sonar imaging was, scientifically and objectively. Lehtola was the one in charge of what to do with that information.

Professes that there is no conspiracy, proceeds to outline a conspiracy theory. WTAF?

 

[Steve]

The bottom line is that Vixen will say whatever it takes to get past the latest objection to her bizarro claims. The business of only examining the bolt underwater and then throwing it back in the sea while it's still in the sea is unusually potty, but far from unprecedented in its bizarrosity. And she doesn't seem to notice when her latest claim contradicts previous claims.

Einstein said something like "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results". Endless pages of 'the same thing' in this thread have failed to get Vixen to budge one inch, so quitting is long overdue. Best of luck all!

**lurks**

Great word. Describes the entire thread really. I may find a use for this word in the future, with permission of course.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

It's the constant chaging of horses that amazes me. Vixen will argue a point until it becomes untenable even for her to argue it (for example nuclear waste melting the bow visor or car ramp or whatever it was supported by a satirical site) then suddenly and immediately switch to a diffrent one of her bizarre theories (a sub did it, there were saboteurs etc etc) or even just jump to a totally disconnected idea (the pods were activated automatically!) then switch back when she thinks enough time has passed.

We do notice you doing this Vixen. It's quite obvious.

 

[Axxman300]

Quick Summation of the progress of this thread:

Vixen posted the first marine science survey of the wreck, and surrounding sea floor, and water-column of the new investigation. The report makes it obvious that the fractures on the starboard side of the hull were caused post-sinking by impact with the sea floor.

In Normal People Land this should have ended the thread, as it is clear that Estonia did in fact sink due to the loss of her bow-visor in heavy seas because she was sailing at flank-speed into the waves.

But no.

We now how mini-submarines driving around on the sea floor doing donuts, Spetsnaz strike teams blowing off the bow visor, even though we're told it was not enough to cause the ship to sink as fast as it did, and somehow not knowing where the captain went undermined the first official investigation, and thus it is invalid. Throw in missing bolts, and poorly quoted news articles written before all the evidence had been collected and logged, and we're on another Mr.Toad's Wild Ride through the countryside of cheesy spy fiction.

 

[Vixen]

That's a good question. Vixen, when did police divers go down to the wreck? Which police force did they belong to and whose jurisdiction is it in? Which police forces have divers equipped to operate at 80m depth anyway?

The front 'luxury' cabins were occupied by a retired sea captain and his wife, the Voronin family, Captain Piht and various members of the Stockholm Police ST Department. Also in adjacent cabins were the chief engineer and chief medical officer. All presumed dead, after initially being listed as survivors, with only the Voronin family and an old sea captain as survivors. Divers were sent to retrieve various items from those cabins, including an attaché case from Piht's cabin, but had the name tag 'Voronin', so either he was sharing the same cabin - and this is common on these ferries - or the police mixed up Voronin's cabin with his. The fact they had to break down the door tells you they were looking for something specific, and although it was the Rockwater divers, it did not seem to be on their survey remit, but you can see all these side searches on the Rockwater tape.

DC2 - OK John, just in front of you there is possibly cabin 6229, very large cabin
D - 6229, that would be forward
DC2 - That's forward yes, very large cabin four bunks and all that crap
D - OK
DC2 - If you can get in to it?
D - Handle went all way round
DC2 - Handle went all way round
DC2 - Slack the diver as he goes
DC2 - Next one coming down on that side would be 6230
D - 6230
DC2 - Again, facing forward very large cabin
Diver complain of headache, want to change
DC2 - Slack the diver
D - Big cabins
DC2 - Yes very big cabins
D - not readable...cabin 6230
DC2 - Very big cabins this, might take a while searching
DC2 tell the diver what the cabin look like, where the toilet is and everything
D - Enters
Diver look around, find refrigerator, make joke of cold beer if any, look around
D - I'll found an attaché case here
DC2 - Attaché case, any markings on it?
D - Eeee...yes, hold on here, yepp, we got a name....Alexander Vorin
DC2 - Alexander...
D - Alexander Voran
DC2 - Can you spell it?
D - Victor, Oscar, Romeo, Alfa, November, November
They try to read the name tag several times and come to VORANI
D - OK
DC2 - And that's it?
D - I cant read it out
DC2 - OK, I'll just see if that name rings a bell up here...
D - Can I leave...not readable...suddenly
DC2 - OK, it's a Russian name, Alexander V-o-r-o-n
D - Voranoly
DC2 - Yes
D - It possibly could belong to the man outside
Time 47 minutes on the tape

From this tape, in blue above, it is clear that they carefully were investigating the cabins for certain objects, among those suitcases. The first suitcase they found seem to be the one they were looking for. In red, it is clear that the police was in control of the investigation. They were only interested in some cabins, others they did not bother to break into. It is also known from survivors that a person during the last trip was having an attaché case locked to his arm. This person dressed in a wine red suit was having the dinner together with the crew and he moved unrestricted among the crew. From information regarding other trips with the Estonia this man was seen aboard many times carrying the attaché case. [There is a body on the bridge wearing a red-brown jacket.]

Most interesting is that Alexander and Vassili Voronin both have stated that they together with Vassili's grandfather were staying in a luxury four bed cabin 6320. There is no such cabin. But there is a luxury four bed cabin No: 6230 where Alexander's attaché case was found. However, there is a catch, this cabin was Captain Avo Piht's. Therefore I think it is clear that Avo Piht and Voronin had some business together, and that it was of such interest that the police had to investigate and find Voronin's attaché case.

Members Tripod


As the JAIC deals with none of this, it must be a police matter, who as you know, don't have a requirement to explain anything to the public.


Aside: and you thought Jutta Rabe's character in Baltic Storm with an attaché case strapped to his wrist was a corny bad B-list spy movie plot, but actually, it is based on fact.

 

[Vixen]

All this time, Vixen has been telling us that they said the bolt was too heavy for the helicopter. We find instead that "some parts had to be left behind due to weight restrictions." There were weight restrictions on the helicopter, so they couldn't take everything. Some things, including the bolt, were left behind. Very clear what this means, and it is not at all what Vixen has been saying. Unless there is more reliable source that contradicts this one, no one ever said the bolt was too heavy.

The quote even explains why the bolt was left behind: "the bolt did not show any changes except for some notchings." This makes sense. If you are trying to understand the damage to the ship, a part that doesn't show signs of damage would be low priority. Better to use your limited capacity to carry things that might be more valuable to the investigation.

It is pretty clear that the bolt is one of those classic items from conspiracy theory thinking: something utterly unimportant that is treated as absolutely crucial simply because it is (allegedly) missing.

For the umpteenth time, despite the JAIC glibly stating this was examined, it omits to mention it was examined by Stenstrom at the diving site (I believe the diving platform was underwater) and fails to mention he immediately threw it back onto the seabed. IOW only one person examined the bolt and claims to have jotted down his notes on site that it was undamaged. However, from what we know of its past history, this seems unlikely. Why was it not brought to the surface for proper examination? How is that fair to the shipbuilders who wanted to understand the claims made against them? The claim it was 'too heavy for the helicopter' is poppycock.

 

[Vixen]

Where does Captain Swoop say the JAIC had it all along, and what is your basis for suggesting that he is lying?

Here:

"You posted a source saying it was on the recovery ship. We know it was recovered with the rest of the lock mechanism, it was still attached to the actuating ram. It was inspected and found to be in good condition.
Your quoted report says it was left on the dive ship."


He gets his information from the JAIC.

What he and the JAIC fail to tell you is that the bolt was thrown back onto the seabed. Why else would Arikas and Kurm state they hoped to find it in their recent expeditions?

 

[Here_to_learn]

For the umpteenth time, despite the JAIC glibly stating this was examined, it omits to mention it was examined by Stenstrom at the diving site (I believe the diving platform was underwater) and fails to mention he immediately threw it back onto the seabed. IOW only one person examined the bolt and claims to have jotted down his notes on site that it was undamaged. However, from what we know of its past history, this seems unlikely. Why was it not brought to the surface for proper examination? How is that fair to the shipbuilders who wanted to understand the claims made against them? The claim it was 'too heavy for the helicopter' is poppycock.

You are absolutely amazing. On the specific page you link to, chapter "2.3 Parts Recovered for Examination" it says:

The locking bolt was removed from the actuator piston rod by divers on 4 December 1994 and brought to the surface. It was checked for wear and deformation.

 

[Vixen]

You keep saying this as if he went to Hogwarts or Oxford or something.

Here's what your CT website says:



[source:https://www.estoniaferrydisaster.net/estonia final report/chapter7.htm]

The credentials of the matter have ZERO bearing on the events of the night of the sinking, only his actions, and lack thereof.

The German Group has a scathing attitude towards Andresson, but that is easy to do in hindsight and we don't know what happened to him. One could project all sorts of things onto him.

 

[erwinl]

For the umpteenth time, despite the JAIC glibly stating this was examined, it omits to mention it was examined by Stenstrom at the diving site (I believe the diving platform was underwater) and fails to mention he immediately threw it back onto the seabed. IOW only one person examined the bolt and claims to have jotted down his notes on site that it was undamaged. However, from what we know of its past history, this seems unlikely. Why was it not brought to the surface for proper examination? How is that fair to the shipbuilders who wanted to understand the claims made against them? The claim it was 'too heavy for the helicopter' is poppycock.

But it was brought to the surface and examined!!.
Just as you posted as well. Why are you saying it wasn't?

Edit.
Ninja'd by Here_to_learn

 

[Vixen]

Out in the real-world Police Dive Teams are made up of police officers who also scuba dive.

Rockwater salvage divers are only salvage divers. That's all they do.

And by the time the first divers reached the wreck everyone knew the bow visor had come off, so that area became the focus of the investigation. Identifying bodies on the bridge will only tell you who was there when the ship sank, not who left before, or when they left. Even had the divers found the captain deeper in the ship there would be no way to tell how he got there, how long he had been there, or if the place they found him was the place where he expired (all of the bodies in the Rockwater videos are still floating).

So maybe alter your theories to reflect the real world.

Andresson came on watch at 0100, or is presumed to have done.


Why would he leave the bridge at all after that point?


The Rockwater divers were more than 'salvage divers'. These are guys with intense training or several years experience in deep water diving, the elite of the elite, if you like. They got the tender, despite being the most expensive. Rockwater-Smit-Tak is US/Norwegian and Dutch various owned holding companies. The diving teams were in teams of three - the tapes released to the public appear to consist of British divers, included Dave Mawston, who is seen retrieving the HRU and man overboard buoy together with various odds and ends, and enters the bridge to retrieve the logbook and navigational equipment. He clearly has nerves of steel, moving a body out of the way from the door well and patiently breaking down cabin doors. The divers, as is the usual protocol had instructions through one earpiece - and we hear a British voice instructing 'Dave' what to do on the tape - but there are also instructions from another person in the other earpiece, which is mute on the tape and we are not privy to.

The fact 'Dave' is instructed to break into cabins does indicate that not only is he assessing salvageability of the wreck and whether it is feasible to bring up the bodies, he is also helping out the police at the same time (even though he doesn't seem to have been instructed to ID the bodies in the bridge, although I am sure they would have been ID-ed, just that we have not been told by the JAIC).

The inclusion of the Americans and the Brits on what is a Swedish-Estonian owned ship points to CIA and MI6 involvement IMV.

 

[Vixen]

There is a total of 20 sentences in the section I linked to. (And it's "Other observations").

Out of those 20 sentences, 0 have anything to do with radio communications. 0 have anything to do with EPIRBs. 0 had anything to do with the speed of rescue.

But the last two sentences are these:


What happened here? Did you not read all 20 sentences and instead started talking about other topics? Or did you actually read all 20 sentences, discovered that the JAIC report in fact contained information about "the possibility of sabotage", and then decided to ignore this and start talking about other topics?

As the vessel had been underwater several weeks then liquid chromatography might well not include vestiges of explosives - see TW800 case, as it dissovles in water. Far better would have been a metallurgy examination for the types of deformation caused by detonation.

 

[Andy_Ross]

For the umpteenth time, despite the JAIC glibly stating this was examined, it omits to mention it was examined by Stenstrom at the diving site (I believe the diving platform was underwater) and fails to mention he immediately threw it back onto the seabed. IOW only one person examined the bolt and claims to have jotted down his notes on site that it was undamaged. However, from what we know of its past history, this seems unlikely. Why was it not brought to the surface for proper examination? How is that fair to the shipbuilders who wanted to understand the claims made against them? The claim it was 'too heavy for the helicopter' is poppycock.

there was no underwater 'diving platform' it was a diving support ship.

It was not just a 'jotting' in notes. It was measured and examined.

It was brought to the surface.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Here:

"You posted a source saying it was on the recovery ship. We know it was recovered with the rest of the lock mechanism, it was still attached to the actuating ram. It was inspected and found to be in good condition.
Your quoted report says it was left on the dive ship."


He gets his information from the JAIC.

What he and the JAIC fail to tell you is that the bolt was thrown back onto the seabed. Why else would Arikas and Kurm state they hoped to find it in their recent expeditions?

Because they are grasping at straws.

 

[Vixen]

But you claimed that nuclear waste dissolved the hinges. Osmium is not nuclear waste. It is a rare earth element. I guess I can add chemist to my list of doctorates not held.

Besides, Osmium is not going to dissolve any hinges. You are simply chucking it in in the hopes nobody heard of it before. A forlorn hope. Even if we had not, a quick google reveals the abject ignorance.

In any event, Osmium is the last metal in the Lathanide series. It is a rare earth element. It has no known reactive properties.. Not least melting a ship via bow doors.

I have no idea why you chucked that in. Go ahead, tell us all how Osmium melted the bow doors via fusion reaction or whatever the next mad claim is. Because we know that is not possible.

The osmium comes from the Felix Group. This was a group founded by ex-speznats, so probably Russian intelligence as to the cause of the accident or possible cause. It might seem like a tall story but customs in Sweden and Finland were very busy intercepting smuggled Caesium and Uranium 238, together with people smuggling from across the Russian Asian continent, and the drugs trade from Afghanistan. The radioactive stuff was rife in Pladiski, the Soviet military base in Estonia, when the Soviets were kicked out of Estonia and they were forced to decommission their nuclear rods and abandon a whole bunch of submarines, planes and boats, so not at all far-fetched. See the CIA Report here for 1994.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Andresson came on watch at 0100, or is presumed to have done.


Why would he leave the bridge at all after that point?

How do we know he did?
The ship was sinking, we don't know how he reacted. Maybe he panicked and fled for the boats like the captains of MT Oceanos or Costa Concordia.
Maybe he was bravely moving around the ship organising the crew, maybe he fell or was washed overboard.
Maybe he was the chief saboteur and was taken away by the Russians.
That's why nothing was reported until it was too late and the signs of trouble ignored, he was in on it all along.

The Rockwater divers were more than 'salvage divers'. These are guys with intense training or several years experience in deep water diving, the elite of the elite, if you like. They got the tender, despite being the most expensive. Rockwater-Smit-Tak is US/Norwegian and Dutch various owned holding companies. The diving teams were in teams of three - the tapes released to the public appear to consist of British divers, included Dave Mawston, who is seen retrieving the HRU and man overboard buoy together with various odds and ends, and enters the bridge to retrieve the logbook and navigational equipment. He clearly has nerves of steel, moving a body out of the way from the door well and patiently breaking down cabin doors. The divers, as is the usual protocol had instructions through one earpiece - and we hear a British voice instructing 'Dave' what to do on the tape - but there are also instructions from another person in the other earpiece, which is mute on the tape and we are not privy to.

The fact 'Dave' is instructed to break into cabins does indicate that not only is he assessing salvageability of the wreck and whether it is feasible to bring up the bodies, he is also helping out the police at the same time (even though he doesn't seem to have been instructed to ID the bodies in the bridge, although I am sure they would have been ID-ed, just that we have not been told by the JAIC).

The inclusion of the Americans and the Brits on what is a Swedish-Estonian owned ship points to CIA and MI6 involvement IMV.

If he was looking for the captains cabin it is more likely he was looking for papers relating to the way the ship was being handled.
Maybe he was just getting access to areas of the ship where it was safe for him to do so.

Why do you jump to spy stuff?
What do you think was in this case? Maybe it was all the osmium.

 

[Here_to_learn]

As the vessel had been underwater several weeks then liquid chromatography might well not include vestiges of explosives - see TW800 case, as it dissovles in water. Far better would have been a metallurgy examination for the types of deformation caused by detonation.

I see, so the Finnish police was incompetent in the types of examinations they performed, but luckily you know better.

But I'm glad that you now agree that your previous statement that JAIC did not look into the possibility of sabotage was incorrect. You now agree that they did it, and you are just not happy with how the Finnish police performed it.