Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part III

[Reformed Offlian]

40K kg heroin street price weighted average in 1994 was $118 per gram or €99 equivalent. That would be worth US$4,720k on the street or €3,960k.

As for osmium, it is currently $400 per oz., cobalt $36/lb.

Where there is brass there is muck and there is little doubt smuggling took place.

Given Sweden admitted it participated in smuggling Soviet military and space secrets circa Septemebr 1994, there was likely some very serious organised crime around these ferries.

So, if there was some kind of tip-off the goods would be intercepted at Stockholm, then you can see that a ruthless criminal isn't going to have much compunction trying to get rid of it to prevent customs getting it. I have no idea if this is what happened but it is not beyond the realms of possibility.

Doesn't answer the question: Why would somebody try to open the bow visor in the middle of the sea in the middle of a storm. "Because they're criminals" is not an answer.

 

[Vixen]

Do you take that to mean that the lock parts were not brought to the surface for examination?

The bolt was not. It was thrown back onto the seabed. The claim was it was 'too heavy for the helicopter'.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Oh, by the way - how does this statement relate to section 8.12 in the JAIC report?

More from Chapter 8 on various weld failures.

All four hinge bushing housings had separated from the side plates of the hinge arms. The failure had generally taken place at the fillet welds and the rim of the lug, surrounding the aftward facing part of the housing.

The welds had failed generally in the fusion zones between either the weld beads and the housing or the bead and the side plates.

It was noted that the weld beads between the lugs and the bolt housing and the support bushing respectively had failed partly in the bead itself and partly in the fusion zones.

The bulb bars separated from the adjacent bulkheads because of weld failure.

The shear surfaces show indications of old cracks along a considerable part of their length.

The bottom platform of the mounting was eventually pulled out of the hull due to shearing of the platform and failure of the welds.

 

[Vixen]

Or, one of the experienced sonar men aboard the ship with access to all the data they had collected told him it wasn't the bow visor?

Are the crew of the survey ship in on the conspiracy now?

What conspiracy? TURSAS did their job, reported what the sonar imaging was, scientifically and objectively. Lehtola was the one in charge of what to do with that information.

 

[Andy_Ross]

40K kg heroin street price weighted average in 1994 was $118 per gram or €99 equivalent. That would be worth US$4,720k on the street or €3,960k.

As for osmium, it is currently $400 per oz., cobalt $36/lb.

Where there is brass there is muck and there is little doubt smuggling took place.

Given Sweden admitted it participated in smuggling Soviet military and space secrets circa Septemebr 1994, there was likely some very serious organised crime around these ferries.

So, if there was some kind of tip-off the goods would be intercepted at Stockholm, then you can see that a ruthless criminal isn't going to have much compunction trying to get rid of it to prevent customs getting it. I have no idea if this is what happened but it is not beyond the realms of possibility.

Of course it is.

How could a member of the crew open the bow visor and ramp in the middle of a raging storm with the ship heading in to the waves?

How would they dump a lorry overboard?

Why wouldn't they just throw stuff over the rail?

How does a crewman opening the bows tie in with your ninja squad blowing it up? I thought you had pictures of th explosives?

 

[GlennB]

So, if there was some kind of tip-off the goods would be intercepted at Stockholm, then you can see that a ruthless criminal isn't going to have much compunction trying to get rid of it to prevent customs getting it. I have no idea if this is what happened but it is not beyond the realms of possibility.

Pushing it out of the bow of a ro-ro ferry, in its truck in a storm, would be utterly impossible.

If it were capable of eating its way through a load of steel ship, what was it contained in to prevent it from eating its way out of the truck? Was it taken out of its radiation-proof container for disposal? Why would they take it to the bow structures and what were they planning to do with it there? Who did that and why didn't they rapidly fall ill and die? Patsies who were deceived about what they were doing?

Stop making yourself look ridiculous. Why are you doing it, and doing it for page after endless page?

 

[Vixen]

Does anyone know what claim this is supposed to support? Vixen has never and will never explain their "reasoning," being content just to describe things using ominous-sounding language. I honestly can't imagine how one guy changing his mind once about the location of the bow visor is supposed to be evidence of a conspiracy.

Is the conclusion supposed to be that the ship went down with the bow visor attached, which was visible via early sonar imaging? And they explained this to Lehtola, who then publicly revealed what he learned, which he wasn't supposed to do even though they apparently didn't tell him that, so then was forced to recant? And then Swedish divers went down and moved the bow visor to fit with the conclusion they wanted? This is supposed to be more reasonable than concluding that a guy was wrong once and then corrected himself?

I dunno seems pretty stupid.

There is no conspiracy. Sweden (KSI, CIA and MI6) deemed it a classified accident. Hence the public were spun a story thought to be plausible, and as the bow visor came off it was feintly correct.

Except the public were not as dimwitted as they expected.

 

[Andy_Ross]

"Observations".

If they incompetently think that 14 ships hearing the Mayday meant there was no communications problem on the might (when all they had to do was take note of what the Captain of Mariella said, or Stockholm MRCC) and that 'the EPIRB sent no signals' was all right 'because it did not affect speed of rescue' is in anyway showing analytic skills then it is no wonder people don't trust their findings.

What does that have to do with the welds?

We know the radio was working, we have the actual recording and we know that a number of ships and shore stations responded.

We know the buoys were in working order and never activated because they were recovered and tested.

 

[Andy_Ross]

The bolt was not. It was thrown back onto the seabed. The claim was it was 'too heavy for the helicopter'.

You posted a source saying it was on the recovery ship. We know it was recovered with the rest of the lock mechanism, it was still attached to the actuating ram. It was inspected and found to be in good condition.
Your quoted report says it was left on the dive ship.

 

[Andy_Ross]

What conspiracy? TURSAS did their job, reported what the sonar imaging was, scientifically and objectively. Lehtola was the one in charge of what to do with that information.

Yes, and they knew their analysis shows that the visor was not on the ship.
Lehtola thought it was from the initial report but later corrected his opinion.
Isn't that how it's supposed to work?

I don't see what the problem is here. Is the conspiracy supposed to be that it was there but he had to change it to say it wasn't. Or' is the conspiracy that it wasn't there and when he said it was he made a mistake?

Where was the visor supposed to be?

 

[Andy_Ross]

There is no conspiracy. Sweden (KSI, CIA and MI6) deemed it a classified accident. Hence the public were spun a story thought to be plausible, and as the bow visor came off it was feintly correct.

Except the public were not as dimwitted as they expected.

So was the visor supposed to be there or not according to the conspiracy?

You are jumping from one to the other.

We know the visor wasn't on the bow when the wreck was found. Or, is that the conspiracy> It was removed after the ship sank?

How does that fit in with explosives?

 

[Vixen]

Doesn't answer the question: Why would somebody try to open the bow visor in the middle of the sea in the middle of a storm. "Because they're criminals" is not an answer.

It was an ordinary September storm. The car deck is 2m above the waterline. How do you know someone didn't do exactly this type of thing before but without mishap?

Getting into the mind of a criminal and saying 'they wouldn't do such a reckless thing', doesn't work as you cannot assume they are wired like a normal person, especially if illegal cargo worth $/€/£'000's is involved.

 

[Andy_Ross]

It was an ordinary September storm. The car deck is 2m above the waterline. How do you know someone didn't do exactly this type of thing before but without mishap?

Because it's ******* crazy!

Getting into the mind of a criminal and saying 'they wouldn't do such a reckless thing', doesn't work as you cannot assume they are wired like a normal person, especially if illegal cargo worth $/€/£'000's is involved.

What is the procedure for opening the bows of a ferry?
Can one man do it?
Can it be done without anyone noticing?
Were the captain and other officers in on this?
Can it be done in a storm with 6m waves?
How would they get a truck off the car deck over the bow even if they did manage to open it?

I have posted this before, but here is a ferry in waves of less then 6m.
How would it be possible to open the bows and throw a lorry off?



Where were the explosive charges when they were doing all this?

 

[Vixen]

You posted a source saying it was on the recovery ship. We know it was recovered with the rest of the lock mechanism, it was still attached to the actuating ram. It was inspected and found to be in good condition.
Your quoted report says it was left on the dive ship.

Stop denying what is documented.

Recovered objects: The divers have dismounted respectively burnt off the well known parts including the bolt of the Atlantic lock. When they were preparing the helicopter flight back some parts had to be left behind due to weight restrictions. As the bolt did not show any changes except for some notchings, it was left behind on the diving support vessel. He assumes that the bolt has been thrown overboard in the meantime (weight ca. 25 kg). The other parts will be shown to us tomorrow. We will receive name and contact of the owners of the diving support vessel and shall find out where the bolt actually is.

Why would Arikas or Kurm be hoping to find the missing bolt on the seabed if, as you erroneously claim (or rather, knowingly falsely claim) the JAIC had it all along?

 

[Mojo]

What conspiracy?

Who knows? They seem to be mutually exclusive in any case.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Stop denying what is documented.



Why would Arikas or Kurm be hoping to find the missing bolt on the seabed if, as you erroneously claim (or rather, knowingly falsely claim) the JAIC had it all along?

'assumes' is doing a lot of heavy lifting here.

Why did you quote a source that says it was left on the dive ship after being examined?

 

[Andy_Ross]

Forgot to ask, what is an "ordinary September storm"?

How is it any less dangerous or severe than any other ordinary storm?

 

[LondonJohn]

40K kg heroin street price weighted average in 1994 was $118 per gram or €99 equivalent. That would be worth US$4,720k on the street or €3,960k.

A usual way of expressing these quantities would be "US$4.72m on the street or €3.96m

And anyway, how have we now got onto heroin?

As for osmium, it is currently $400 per oz., cobalt $36/lb.

Likewise: osmium?? Cobalt???? Any other metals you'd care to throw randomly into the mix?

Where there is brass there is muck and there is little doubt smuggling took place.

Got any evidence for that, specifically wrt the ferry services between Tallinn and Stockholm. Or is this just another "there is little doubt that...." which has been pulled out of thin air by you?

Given Sweden admitted it participated in smuggling Soviet military and space secrets circa Septemebr 1994, there was likely some very serious organised crime around these ferries.

So, if there was some kind of tip-off the goods would be intercepted at Stockholm, then you can see that a ruthless criminal isn't going to have much compunction trying to get rid of it to prevent customs getting it. I have no idea if this is what happened but it is not beyond the realms of possibility.

I see. And this "ruthless criminal" would have the means to a) ensure that his vehicle(s) was/were parked up right next to the bow ramp in the first place, b) get down onto the vehicle deck mid-way through the crossing, c) be able to get rid of the bow visor and get the bow ramp to lower all the way down, and d) manoeuvre his vehicle(s) sufficiently to push them off the deck, down the fully-lowered bow ramp, and off the ship into the sea? All without being noticed by a single member of the crew? And in a pretty severe storm?

Yes, that sounds plausible. Maybe you're right.

 

[Vixen]

Because it's ******* crazy!



What is the procedure for opening the bows of a ferry?
Can one man do it?
Can it be done without anyone noticing?
Were the captain and other officers in on this?
Can it be done in a storm with 6m waves?
How would they get a truck off the car deck over the bow even if they did manage to open it?

I have posted this before, but here is a ferry in waves of less then 6m.
How would it be possible to open the bows and throw a lorry off?



Where were the explosive charges when they were doing all this?

From the same Felix report - which admittedly is supposedly a group of ex-speznats but likely just the ne man - Captain Andresson was in on it.

Several witnesses heard sounds of the opening of the bowdoors and engines just before the accident. The captain was definitely not on the bridge during the accident; his voice was not on the Mayday recordings. He could very well have been at the fore coordinating the operation. A Latvian policeman on board stated immediately after he was rescued that he saw the bowdoors move just before the accident.

Wise

Why didn't the JAIC explain where Captain Andresson was? Surely that is the first thing that needs to be established in a public inquiry?

 

[LondonJohn]

The bolt was not. It was thrown back onto the seabed. The claim was it was 'too heavy for the helicopter'.

Prove it, Vixen.

Supply reliable, primary-source evidence to this thread, supporting the claim you've made here.


If you cannot do that, we are fully entitled to disregard your claim in its entirety. So which of those two options would you prefer to happen?