Discussion: Transwomen are not women (Part 7)

[d4m10n]

A woman is someone with the lived cultural identity and set of values/behaviours that is generally attributed to females (but it's not exclusive to females).

Where are you getting this from? It looks original. (Nothing wrong with that.)

I'm sorry that you still don't know enough about this subject to understand what the UK Government's position on the matter is.

I certainly don't know enough to understand why your definition should be considered preferable to the one from the Equality Act 2010. Perhaps you do, and perhaps you are even articulate enough to explain.

 

[LondonJohn]

Defines "woman" as what, exactly?

ETA: I'm going with this definition until you come up with another one.

You carry on with your ignorance around transgender identity (including the way the UK government makes a strict differentiation between (biological) sex and gender).

Frankly, there are too many bigots, reactionaries, naysayers and denialists in this thread, and none of them (including you) has indicated any genuine desire to learn and understand the current thinking on transgender identity and the way that this current thinking is manifesting itself in the legislation of various large countries. I don't really care about educating or informing you at this point.

Naively, I'd have thought that critical thinkers who had an interest in this subject would actively want to research and understand what mainstream medicine has to say on the matter, and why so many national governments are now enshrining this in legislation. But hey, if a blinkered refusal to learn and understand is what floats their/your boat, who am I to try to sink it.

I'm just thankful that none of them/you are in positions of authority wrt people with transgender identity.

 

[LondonJohn]

Where are you getting this from? It looks original. (Nothing wrong with that.)

I certainly don't know enough to understand why your definition should be considered preferable to the one from the Equality Act 2010. Perhaps you do, and perhaps you are even articulate enough to explain.

As I said: the very fact that the UK Government considers sex and gender to be two disconnected concepts (entirely contrary to the Act you keep quoting to me)..... should tell you all you need to know about this particular narrow matter.

 

[LondonJohn]

Anyhow, I've long since grown tired of playing this stupid and pointless game of engagement with people who either refuse to understand or who are incapable of understanding. I'm entirely happy to leave you to your own little echochamber, safe in the knowledge that your collective denialism fortunately has zero real-world consequences.

 

[theprestige]

From Section 2 of the document (my highlighting and bolding for emphasis):

That is not a definition of "man" or "woman".

 

[d4m10n]

As I said: the very fact that the UK Government considers sex and gender to be two disconnected concepts...

I've never disputed that sex and gender are disconnected (or perhaps distinct but related) concepts.

Frankly, there are too many bigots, reactionaries, naysayers and denialists in this thread, and none of them (including you) has indicated any genuine desire to learn and understand the current thinking on transgender identity and the way that this current thinking is manifesting itself in the legislation of various large countries.

Namecalling isn't remotely productive, IMO. You should think about treating people with a bit more dignity if you hope to continue this discussion.

I appreciate that you finally came up with a definition of "woman" at #2700 (it's always good to know what one's interlocutors mean) but it's not one I've seen codified into law on either side of the Atlantic.

 

[Ziggurat]

You carry on with your ignorance around transgender identity (including the way the UK government makes a strict differentiation between (biological) sex and gender).

That was a very long winded way of saying you can't provide one.

 

[theprestige]

A woman is someone with the lived cultural identity and set of values/behaviours that is generally attributed to females (but it's not exclusive to females).

Where does the UK government adopt that definition?

Where does the scientific consensus adopt that definition?

What are the set of values generally attributed to females by the UK government?

 

[Roboramma]

From Section 2 of the document (my highlighting and bolding for emphasis):

Given that your quote didn't contain a definition of "man" or "woman", could you try again and actually find the definition that you claim exists?

 

[Meadmaker]

Anyhow, I've long since grown tired of playing this stupid and pointless game of engagement with people who either refuse to understand or who are incapable of understanding.

Some people might have seen a pre-editing version of this post which, in its own way, was a more concise summary of my feelings on the matter. However, I decided to elaborate.

I think your description is simply wrong. I am extremely confident that I am included in the group of people you describe as people who "either refuse to understand or who are incapable of understanding." And yet I think that neither I nor the others who I'm sure are included in that group can be described accurately in that way. I think many of the people who have engaged in this thread have shown a great deal of comprehension about the medical and social issues associated with transgender people, but have reached a different conclusion about how that ought to affect law and policy. It isn't a question of understanding. It's a question of priorities. Simply put, I decided some years back, after studying the issues and discussing them, mostly in this forum, that modesty was a valid lived condition and I would support women, especially teenage girls, in their desire not to share a locker room with male students. That's it. It's not a case of not understanding anything. It's a case of saying that not everyone can get what they want, and saying that the feelings of the girls are valid, and should be respected. It's a pity that not everyone can be accommodated, but that's life, and I choose to respect the wishes of those who feel their privacy is being invaded.

And with sports, the questions are even easier. The whole reason for existence of the binary division is completely undermined if untransitioned males are allowed to compete as girls. There are some issues related to intersex people and to people who have taken hormone treatment. There is room for discussion in those cases, but when it comes to intact males competing as females, the answer is so obvious that it isn't even worth discussing.

And if LondonJohn feels that discussing the above is "stupid and pointless", then I welcome his decision to cease engaging in the topic. I'm not sure "engaging" is really a good word to describe the situation anyway.

 

[Meadmaker]

A woman is someone with the lived cultural identity and set of values/behaviours that is generally attributed to females (but it's not exclusive to females).

Hmmm....

If we use LJ's definition here, how do we decide who can lift weights in the women's section at the Olympics? I'm not sure that wanting to lift weights and grow muscles in bulk is a value or behavior generally attributed to females. It wasn't that long ago that there was no women's weightlifting competition, for exactly that reason.

 

[Ziggurat]

A woman is someone with the lived cultural identity and set of values/behaviours that is generally attributed to females (but it's not exclusive to females).

That's less circular than many definitions I've seen. But it's still kind of a crap definition. What does "lived cultural identity" mean? And what if you have the lived cultural identity (whatever that is) but not the set of values that is generally attributed to females? What if you have the values but not the behaviors? What if you have the values and behaviors but not the "lived cultural identity"?

But since this is dependent on culture and cultures are not all the same, what happens if you fit the definition in one culture but not in another?

 

[theprestige]

What set of values do women have that men do not?

 

[Louden Wilde]

That's less circular than many definitions I've seen. But it's still kind of a crap definition. What does "lived cultural identity" mean? And what if you have the lived cultural identity (whatever that is) but not the set of values that is generally attributed to females? What if you have the values but not the behaviors? What if you have the values and behaviors but not the "lived cultural identity"?

But since this is dependent on culture and cultures are not all the same, what happens if you fit the definition in one culture but not in another?

And as Elaedith pointed out above - there is a fundamental contradiction between a definition reliant on culture and an innate sense of being woman (many Trans-activists/gender-ideologues claim the latter - that we all have some essential gendered brain identity or essence).

 

[Meadmaker]

Here's an interesting story:

https://edsource.org/2021/proposed-...after-student-outcry-and-state-warning/663892

Basically, a school board member proposed a trans-exclusive policy for the school district's activities (i.e. bathrooms, locker rooms, sports) and it was voted down.

The interesting thing is that, as presented here, it seems that the only people to speak on the subject were opposed tot he resolution. The speakers included students and parents, and there was unanimous opposition, according to the article.


If that's true, and there's no funny business going on, it would be different than many other places, where many students voiced opposition to trans-inclusion.

I've said for several years now that my own opposition to trans-inclusion is based on my belief that the girls mostly want it that way. i.e., they want males out of their locker rooms and off of their sports teams. If that is changing, then who am I to argue? I'll support what the girls want.

 

[theprestige]

And as Elaedith pointed out above - there is a fundamental contradiction between a definition reliant on culture and an innate sense of being woman (many Trans-activists/gender-ideologues claim the latter - that we all have some essential gendered brain identity or essence).

This is essentially Boudicca's position, as I understand it. That gender identity is part of the genotype.

 

[Olmstead]

A woman is someone with the lived cultural identity and set of values/behaviours that is generally attributed to females (but it's not exclusive to females).

That is just a fancy way of saying a woman is a person who considers herself a woman (circular) and behaves like a stereotypical female.

Blimey.

 

[theprestige]

LJ and other trans activists are caught on the horns of a dilemma. On the one hand, trans identity depends on gender stereotypes. On the other, stereotypes are hateful. So they can't openly define trans identity. They have to handwave vaguely at social whatever, and hope their audience fills in the blanks. Tough going, when their audience rejects those implied stereotypes.

 

[theprestige]

One thing that interests me is this vague appeal to social constructs or whatever. LJ, ST, et al. never actually cite a prominent transwoman. "This is what being a woman means," says Caitlin Jenner. Or does she? Do any of these trans celebrities ever actually define their identity, on the record? A government official claims she is a woman, not a man. But does she ever define either?

Of course not.

 

[d4m10n]

That is just a fancy way of saying a woman is a person who considers herself a woman (circular) and behaves like a stereotypical female.

"Lived cultural identity" could be taken to mean that the individual is perceived and treated as female by society, e.g. pronouns, expectations of femininity, etc.