Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part III

[Andy_Ross]

From some of the descriptions posted here I gather that modern versions might not only have an immersion activation switch but might have a magnetic switch too, allowing them to be left switched on in their holders but prevented from transmitting by a magnet in the holder keeping them turned off.

No, there isn't a magnetic switch. That could easily lead to accidental activation.

 

[erwinl]

It can only mean the latter. The former makes no sense, in the context of EPIRBs. After all, even the genuinely-auto-activated EPIRBs don't require anything to be "switched on" on them at the time when they're placed into the holders.

I thought so as well, but wanted to make sure.

 

[JayUtah]

Yes. Clearly the words "during the setting phase" a) are an imprecise translation, and b) must necessarily mean "at the time when it became necessary to deploy the EPIRBs" - in other words, once the crew know the ship is sinking and that they'll need to activate the EPIRBs and get them into the water.

That's definitely the most parsimonious interpretation given what we know about the people and equipment involved. We know it cannot mean tuning the frequency. For safety's sake there are only two things you can do with the beacon: test its battery and turn it on.

 

[abaddon]

Well, or that I cannot hear you. Or perhaps that you were unable to reply, whether or not you heard me (as may be the case in a serious emergency, I suppose).

The point is, of course, that if you do say something back, I know you can hear me. If you do not, I don't know why not.

Just a little pedantry to point this out, nothing of substance.

Yup. I was going to put in the various possibilities, but then I remembered to whom the post was addressed and figured it would just cause confusion. Another possibility is that the recipient simply declines to reply. Just look at Europa. She arrived at her destination a day late, thereabouts (I would have to check the timeline to be accurate). A captain under pressure to meet a deadline might make the decision not to respond at all so as not to interrupt his/her progress. That more or less happened legitimately in at least two cases. Both asked Europa if they should divert to the scene having heard the c16 traffic but not responded on c16. Europa as acting OSC cleared them to proceed on their planned routes. Too far away to be of any use so what would be the point? OTOH, Mastera (oil tanker) did try to make contact on c16 with anyone involved. Mariella informed them that Europa was OSC. From then on it was clear that while Mastera could hear Mariella, they could not hear Europa.

 

[Reformed Offlian]

"WPIRBS"? Really?

And they were located on Oct. 2. At sea. By two separate fishing vessels. One each in case you couldn't work that out. And they were not activated.

Seriously? Sorry, you cannot rehabilitate your CT that way. Record keeping, tracking, technology have all move on a bit since then, don't you think?

Oh, come off it. First or early reports are always iffy about any event.

We had a saying in the Army: The first report is always wrong. Not literally true, of course, but a relevant caveat.

Early news reports say Dewey won.

 

[abaddon]

We had a saying in the Army: The first report is always wrong. Not literally true, of course, but a relevant caveat.

Early news reports say Dewey won.

Lol. Understood. But in this case we have a mayday from the ship that is sinking. We have a sackload of ships responding. We have EPIRBs that have not been released yet, let alone activated since the ship had not sunk yet. We have the crew of Estonia identifying their name and position on the supposedly blocked c16 rendering the EPIRBs redundant anyway. The position and vessel name were ALREADY KNOWN before it sank.

My question to Vixen remains

In what way would the EPIRBs of any type have accelerated the emergency response?

Vixen cannot answer that.

 

[Reformed Offlian]

It is understandable, as Swedish is an official language in Finland, thus every place name has a Finnish name and a Swedish name. So, when he was interviewing people in Sweden, they would have of course, used their Swedish version. Also the East European Time Zone starts in the middle of the Baltic, so that too, is forgiveable. We know the time of the accident was 0100, so when he says the first helicopters arrived at 0200 we know he means 0300.

He too has the first helicopters leaving Berga as just after 0200, just as Aftonbladet of 28.9.1994, does except he has Y74 and Aftonbladet has Y64

Stefan Olsson of Y74 first to leave Berga and arrived at 0300. This is interesting as JAIC has Y64 and Y74 supposedly not arriving until about 0600

JAIC report

JAIC has Y74 arriving nearer to 0700.

ibid

Why has the JAIC only reported these two helicopters as arriving relatively late - as compared to others - and only rescuing seven.

Swedish Navy helicopter Y 64 1
Swedish Navy helicopter Y 74 6

Yet Kenneth Svensson and Olli Moberg/Stefan Olsson were proclaimed in early Swedish papers as great heroes. (Which, of course, they were in their own right.)

Aftonbladet Wednesday 28 September 1994.

According to Aftonbladet, Svensson saved 8 or 9.

We've been over this. The Aftonbladet says that the Y64 rescue man pulled eight human beings out of the water. Not eight "or nine". Eight. And the JAIC agrees on this point. The eighth person was not ultimately successfully rescued. Thus, seven people were rescued.

The only thing Aftonbladet gets wrong is the timeline.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Lol. Understood. But in this case we have a mayday from the ship that is sinking. We have a sackload of ships responding. We have EPIRBs that have not been released yet, let alone activated since the ship had not sunk yet. We have the crew of Estonia identifying their name and position on the supposedly blocked c16 rendering the EPIRBs redundant anyway. The position and vessel name were ALREADY KNOWN before it sank.

My question to Vixen remains

In what way would the EPIRBs of any type have accelerated the emergency response?

Vixen cannot answer that.

I think her idea is that the buoys that were found weren't from the Estonia. They had been removed by the saboteurs and two fake buoys that just happened to transmit the ID code registered to the Estonia were planted in the sea.

 

[abaddon]

I think her idea is that the buoys that were found weren't from the Estonia. They had been removed by the saboteurs and two fake buoys that just happened to transmit the ID code registered to the Estonia were planted in the sea.

But why? Estonia identified itself and it's location on the supposedly blocked c16 before it sank and thus before any EPIRBs would be released, let alone activated. Help was on the way long before EPIRBs could possibly be released.

Sure, an automatic version could have identified "Vessel: Estonia Location: whatever" after it had sunk. But what use would that be? The name and location were already known before it sank.

Is Vixen next going to claim that the Estonia's radio messages were after it sank? Subterranean messages. perhaps?

 

[Andy_Ross]

We've been over this. The Aftonbladet says that the Y64 rescue man pulled eight human beings out of the water. Not eight "or nine". Eight. And the JAIC agrees on this point. The eighth person was not ultimately successfully rescued. Thus, seven people were rescued.

The only thing Aftonbladet gets wrong is the timeline.

At 0642 the Y64 rescue man got one man aboard the helicopter but the winch failed and he was left in the water.
Y64 called for assistance.
Y74 went to Y64's assistance.
The Y64 rescue man was holding onto a body, which was winched up to Y74 with the assistance of Y74's own rescue man. When the body had been recovered, the Y74's rescue man fell receiving a heavy blow to the lower part of his body.
Nonetheless, he requested that he be lowered to bring up one more body. This body, however, had become badly tangled with the ropes on the raft and could not be winched up.
At this stage the pilot decided to interrupt the recovery of the body, since there might still be survivors in the sea and on rafts.
Finally a spare harness was lowered to the Y 64's rescue man and used to winch him up to the helicopter.
Y64 left the scene to offload survivors and repair.
The injury to the Y74 rescue man proved so serious that he was unable to do more and the work was continued by Y64's rescue man.
At 0715 hrs Y74 found a raft with three survivors, who were winched up into the helicopter.
At 0740 hrs Y69 reported that it too had had to leave its rescue man in the water because of a malfunction of the winch.
In addition, this rescue man was suffering from concussion, since he had hit his head on a lifeboat.
Y74 went to Y69's assistance and the rescue man was recovered to Y74.
Y 64's rescue man recovered three survivors who were hanging on to an upturned lifeboat.
In connection with the rescue of the last of the three, a strong wave threw the rescue man against the lifeboat, injuring him.
Since Y74 now had three injured rescue men, it had to interrupt its rescue operations.
The six survivors, the injured rescue men and the body were taken to Huddinge Hospital, where the helicopter arrived at 0930 hrs.
Y74 returned to Berga at 0940 hrs to change crew and refuel.

That's why a medal was awarded to the Y64 rescue man

 

[abaddon]

At 0642 the Y64 rescue man got one man aboard the helicopter but the winch failed and he was left in the water.
Y64 called for assistance.
Y74 went to Y64's assistance.
The Y64 rescue man was holding onto a body, which was winched up to Y74 with the assistance of Y74's own rescue man. When the body had been recovered, the Y74's rescue man fell receiving a heavy blow to the lower part of his body.
Nonetheless, he requested that he be lowered to bring up one more body. This body, however, had become badly tangled with the ropes on the raft and could not be winched up.
At this stage the pilot decided to interrupt the recovery of the body, since there might still be survivors in the sea and on rafts.
Finally a spare harness was lowered to the Y 64's rescue man and used to winch him up to the helicopter.
Y64 left the scene to offload survivors and repair.
The injury to the Y74 rescue man proved so serious that he was unable to do more and the work was continued by Y64's rescue man.
At 0715 hrs Y74 found a raft with three survivors, who were winched up into the helicopter.
At 0740 hrs Y69 reported that it too had had to leave its rescue man in the water because of a malfunction of the winch.
In addition, this rescue man was suffering from concussion, since he had hit his head on a lifeboat.
Y74 went to Y69's assistance and the rescue man was recovered to Y74.
Y 64's rescue man recovered three survivors who were hanging on to an upturned lifeboat.
In connection with the rescue of the last of the three, a strong wave threw the rescue man against the lifeboat, injuring him.
Since Y74 now had three injured rescue men, it had to interrupt its rescue operations.
The six survivors, the injured rescue men and the body were taken to Huddinge Hospital, where the helicopter arrived at 0930 hrs.
Y74 returned to Berga at 0940 hrs to change crew and refuel.

That's why a medal was awarded to the Y64 rescue man

Rightly so.

Does't stop Vixen from accusing them of all being part of some massive conspiracy.

Vixen pretends to knowledge that simply is not present in Vixen. The "fo'c'sle' pretension is an example. It's a forecastle. Just write the words.

None of the ships involved had a fore helipad. None of the ships had to prepare their forecastle as a helipad, as Vixen claimed.

Because...

They all had real helipads. Located midships or stern. Actual dedicated helipads. You know this because you have been shown this. I have chucked any amount of references, So have others.

But no. You cling to the notion that it was a mine and a limpet, and a torpedo, and a collision with a sub, anf corrosive nuclear waste to disolve the visor connections, and the Spetnaz team and the Swedes, or the Finns, Russian, Estonians and that lord god jesus for all I know. Blame the Japs, why not. It is what you want to do. right Or is it the jooooooooo's

 

[Andy_Ross]

Rightly so.

Does't stop Vixen from accusing them of all being part of some massive conspiracy.

Vixen pretends to knowledge that simply is not present in Vixen. The "fo'c'sle' pretension is an example. It's a forecastle. Just write the words.

None of the ships involved had a fore helipad. None of the ships had to prepare their forecastle as a helipad, as Vixen claimed.

Because...

They all had real helipads. Located midships or stern. Actual dedicated helipads. You know this because you have been shown this. I have chucked any amount of references, So have others.

But no. You cling to the notion that it was a mine and a limpet, and a torpedo, and a collision with a sub, anf corrosive nuclear waste to disolve the visor connections, and the Spetnaz team and the Swedes, or the Finns, Russian, Estonians and that lord god jesus for all I know. Blame the Japs, why not. It is what you want to do. right Or is it the jooooooooo's

Y74 rescue man was also awarded a medal.

 

[LondonJohn]

Y74 rescue man was also awarded a medal.

Pffft both rescue men clearly didn't deserve any such recognition - this is all just a vivid illustration of the misdirection put in place by the authorities: "Hey everyone! Concentrate on these heroes over here! Don't look over there, in case you find out the real reason why the Estonia sank!"



(In Vixen's world.....)

 

[LondonJohn]

Rightly so.

Does't stop Vixen from accusing them of all being part of some massive conspiracy.

Vixen pretends to knowledge that simply is not present in Vixen. The "fo'c'sle' pretension is an example. It's a forecastle. Just write the words.

Or it's just a fore deck. Obviously the -castle suffix has long since lost any literal meaning (it's on account of the fact that medieval ships genuinely did have tall castle-like structures at the bow and stern, from which archers would fire arrows and invaders would prepare to swing across to enemy ships on ropes). I don't have any direct experience of military- or merchant-navy terminology, but I wasn't aware that the term "forecastle deck" was even in standard use in either environment these days to refer to the deck abutting the bow. And if that's correct, then even the use of the term "forecastle deck" would be rather preposterous in itself. Let alone "fo'c'sle deck" LOLOLOL

 

[LondonJohn]

Ooh just got home and have NatGeo channel on in the background. And an episode of the new series "Disasters Engineered" just started. From the corner of my eye, I saw something familiar - the second half of the hour-long programme is going to be about the Estonia disaster!

I have a work call coming up so I'll record it and see what it has to say, but anyone else in UK who gets NatGeo will be able to see it live (and I don't know whether it's already been shown in the US)

 

[Andy_Ross]

Or it's just a fore deck. Obviously the -castle suffix has long since lost any literal meaning (it's on account of the fact that medieval ships genuinely did have tall castle-like structures at the bow and stern, from which archers would fire arrows and invaders would prepare to swing across to enemy ships on ropes). I don't have any direct experience of military- or merchant-navy terminology, but I wasn't aware that the term "forecastle deck" was even in standard use in either environment these days to refer to the deck abutting the bow. And if that's correct, then even the use of the term "forecastle deck" would be rather preposterous in itself. Let alone "fo'c'sle deck" LOLOLOL

If it is raised above the main deck it is still called a forecastle pronounced 'fo'c'sle'.
In that respect none of the ships involved in the rescue had a forecastle.

 

[abaddon]

Or it's just a fore deck. Obviously the -castle suffix has long since lost any literal meaning (it's on account of the fact that medieval ships genuinely did have tall castle-like structures at the bow and stern, from which archers would fire arrows and invaders would prepare to swing across to enemy ships on ropes). I don't have any direct experience of military- or merchant-navy terminology, but I wasn't aware that the term "forecastle deck" was even in standard use in either environment these days to refer to the deck abutting the bow. And if that's correct, then even the use of the term "forecastle deck" would be rather preposterous in itself. Let alone "fo'c'sle deck" LOLOLOL

Sure. such terms derive from all sorts of ancient times. Do you think Vixen is even vaguely aware of that?

 

[Andy_Ross]

Sure. such terms derive from all sorts of ancient times. Do you think Vixen is even vaguely aware of that?

It can be confusing.
Here is a picture of a HMS Rothesay name ship of the type 12M anti-submarine frigates. Designed in the 50s, updated with a flight deck and hanger in the 70s and in service until the late 80s.

It has a Forecastle but it isn't the raised bit at the bow.
Confusingly it is extended to the after end of the helicopter flight deck right near the stern where you can see the tops of the three 'Limbo' anti submarine mortar barrels.

This was common on warships designed from the mid 1940s onwards.
Then they just extended it right to the stern and called it the weather deck.

 

[LondonJohn]

And just to illustrate the original derivation of the term as literally as possible....:

Here's a photo of a model of an early-Medieval British warship, showing the structure on the bow which.... looks just like a miniature version of a castle! Hence: forecastle. This ship also has another castle at the stern - the aftcastle.

 

[abaddon]

It can be confusing.
Here is a picture of a HMS Rothesay name ship of the type 12M anti-submarine frigates. Designed in the 50s, updated with a flight deck and hanger in the 70s and in service until the late 80s.

It has a Forecastle but it isn't the raised bit at the bow.
Confusingly it is extended to the after end of the helicopter flight deck right near the stern where you can see the tops of the three 'Limbo' anti submarine mortar barrels.

This was common on warships designed from the mid 1940s onwards.
Then they just extended it right to the stern and called it the weather deck.

[qimg]https://i.imgur.com/yxgMHuOl.jpg[/qimg]

It is like the term "frigate". Nobody can rightly define what a "frigate" actually is. The definition has wandered all over the place for several centuries.