Cont: Jogging in Georgia while black - The Trial

[Craig4]

I had to take off for a lot of the defense's closing statements. They seem to be really pressing on the fact Arbery didn't talk to them or engage at all.

I do love how this defense attorney is talking, I mean it's doing his job, but he's portraying the McMichael's as just politely, calmly, and leisurely asking, nay pleading, with Arbery to just stop. Please, sir. Please stop for us so that we may calmly discuss this with you.

ETA: These are some really, really terrible closing arguments by the defense. He keeps phrasing things as what Travis is "allowing" Arbery to do.

Why the hell did he bring up the fact that McMichael could have stayed home and done nothing? The jury is probably wondering that and he brought the point home. The bit about defending himself when McMichael said on cross that he was holding the gun at port arms was horrible too. To normal people that's brandishing a weapon.

I started to a stopped counting the number of time the defense attorney used the word belief. That seems an odd choice after the jury instructions are going to say "knowledge" of a crime. He solidified that McMichael was not making a lawful citizen's arrest.

 

[plague311]

Zero chance the two actual murder charges (Malice Murder or Felony Murder) make it past the jury they got. They maybe, maybe get one of the "Shooting a black man without a permit on Sunday without filling out the proper forms" lesser charges, at best.

After watching the entire trial, I don't agree with anything you've said here. I would be willing to place a significantly large amount of money on Travis going to prison for sure. Undoubtedly. I see both the other two getting significant charges as well, Roddie more so because he hit him with his car.

The "Keystone Cops" defense that is so entertaining to us won't make a difference.

Again, I'm not sure what you're basing this on, but I disagree. We've seen actual, literal cops go to jail recently and this has been well prosecuted. Extremely well prosecuted actually.

This is a case that nobody in the legal system ever wanted to go to trial. It took a national outrage to even get us to this point. The jury is made up of the same people as elected a DA who sees a black guy gunned down in a 3 in 1 encounter and doesn't even think it warrants looking into.

Oh give me a ******* break lol. The DA was garbage, she was fired and charged. No one is out there trying to get her hired back. No one is defending her in these threads. No one is defending her in the news. No one is defending her at all.

I don't know who makes up the jury, no one does, but the evidence is overwhelming. If you want me to say that the DA was a racist piece of **** that had a bias due to her work with Greg or Gary or whatever, then I'll happily admit to that. I think you're jumping the gun just to **** on the jury for no reason.

I'm shocked at how many people think the McMichaels getting away with it is some shockingly unlikely scenario seeing as how they already did.

No, they didn't. They got a temporary hall pass, and if you're going to bitch about the people on the jury, remember it's the same officials those people voted in that fired the DA. The prosecutor doing her job is from the same place, and she's been doing outstanding.

The reason I don't see it that way is because I don't see it as reasonable. The reason you DO see it that was is because this is what you do in every single thread like this. All of them. Yet, Chauvin? Prison. Amber? Prison. The latter in Texas. What you're implying is shockingly unlikely. Have you watched the trial?

 

[plague311]

Why the hell did he bring up the fact that McMichael could have stayed home and done nothing? The jury is probably wondering that and he brought the point home. The bit about defending himself when McMichael said on cross that he was holding the gun at port arms was horrible too. To normal people that's brandishing a weapon.

I started to a stopped counting the number of time the defense attorney used the word belief. That seems an odd choice after the jury instructions are going to say "knowledge" of a crime. He solidified that McMichael was not making a lawful citizen's arrest.

Yeah, there weren't a lot of wins to take away from his closing, I felt. We still have two more to go, and if it's the father's attorney next I'm going to be miserable. His attorney's accent sucks, and he speaks so monotone.

 

[JoeMorgue]

I see the Arbury case as equally cut and dry as the Rittenhouse one and that little snot walked, and that case wasn't being tried in goddamn Southern Georgia.

You're too in love with the show of the trial and think it means way more than it does. Giving the prosecution and defense a letter grade isn't the same thing as predicting how the trial is going to go. Yeah the prosecution is doing a much better job in a "Legal 101 Performance Review" kind of way. That barely matters. You think a jury of hand picked good ole' boys is looking at the trial and getting the same message we are. It's much, much more likely that they aren't.

The continued reference to the "Black Pastors," the "Woke Mob" comments, those were features, not bugs. He was talking to the jury, not the judge or the media cameras.

 

[plague311]

I see the Arbury case as equally cut and dry as the Rittenhouse one and that little snot walked, and that case wasn't being tried in goddamn Southern Georgia.

Good, then we've identified your first mistake. They aren't even close. Kyle Rittenhouse had a claim to self defense that was valid. Do I like it? No, and that's a discussion for that thread, but these two cases are miles apart. Miles and miles apart.

You're too in love with the show of the trial and think it means way more than it does. You think a jury of hand picked good ole' boys is looking at the trial and getting the same message we are.

Tough sell considering it's 11 women, and 4 men. One male is a PoC. It's slightly condescending when you're chastising me, yet don't even know the absolute basics of the trial. If by "you're too in love with the show of the trial", you mean I've watched it all, seen the evidence, heard the cross, and paid attention, then yes. Have you? Have you watched any of it? Like any of it at all?

The continued reference to the "Black Pastors," the "Woke Mob" comments, those were features, not bugs. He was talking to the jury, not the judge or the media cameras.

No he wasn't talking to the ******* Jury. Jesus Christ Joe. The comments were made outside of the jury presence. They weren't allowed in the room when they were going through motions. I mean, ******* seriously. Maybe the reason you don't think they'll get prosecuted is you know exactly **** all about what's happened, happening or will happen? You think, maybe, you're just not educated about it and you should maybe take some time to do some research? These aren't petty talking points you're referring to. These are cornerstones of the trial.

 

[JoeMorgue]

*Sighs* I'm just saying your (and to be clear very good and very knowledgably, I'm not taking that away from you) ongoing critique on how well the prosecution is doing and how poorly the defense is doing on the "Grading according to the textbook" way does not translate to my faith in the results to the degree you think it should.

You've made a very good case for why the prosecution should win. That's not exactly the same thing as a solid case for why it will. The system is broken, that's the whole point. And in broken systems the system always looks like its going to work... right up until it doesn't. If a good lawyer was all it took black people would have a lot more justice then they do.

I sincerely hope you're right and I'm wrong. I'm not saying this in some sort of "Neener neener I know more then you wanna bet" way. I'm saying we live in a world where the wrong that happens a lot when the good side can basically go "Well but according to the chart I should have won..."

 

[DevilsAdvocate]

After watching the entire trial, I don't agree with anything you've said here. I would be willing to place a significantly large amount of money on Travis going to prison for sure. Undoubtedly. I see both the other two getting significant charges as well, Roddie more so because he hit him with his car.

I don't see an acquittal for Travis. Maybe a hung jury. The defense didn't seem to have trouble rounding up the town womenfolk to support the defendants and testified that they were afeared for their lives from the scary black man lurking in the shadows around old man English's place. There is always a chance of a holdout. The holiday works against them. The judge will keep sending them back to deliberate. If there are one or two holdout t will depend on whether there convictions are stronger than their desire to enjoy turkey dinner. It shouldn't be like that, but that is just a matter of life.

I think Travis goes down for murder. I don't see the citizens arrest angle working.

I'm not sure about the other two. One thing I expect they will consider is the question of what they would be convicting Greg and Roddie of if Travis had just stayed in the truck and nobody got killed. In that circumstance, would they really be convicting them of these serious felonies? Greg just rode around in the truck, all though he did make a threat. We don't know if Roddie truck hit Arbery or Arbery hit the truck. He didn't really detain or confine him, other than maybe confine him to the neighborhood. He angled in front of him, but never said he tried to hit him or run him over. They willconsider that if not for Travis shooting Arbery these may be wrong but not rise to a level of a felony.


Then there is the question of whether their actions "caused" Arbery's death or whether that is all on Travis. They contributed to some degree, but maybe didn't cause the death.

For those two, some jurors maybe want to go with felony murder and some with full acquittal and compromise on something like attempted aggravated assault. I also wouldn't be surprised if they get felony murder, but I think that is a tougher call.

 

[plague311]

*Sighs* I'm just saying your (and to be clear very good and very knowledgably, I'm not taking that away from you) ongoing critique on how well the prosecution is doing and how poorly the defense is doing on the "Grading according to the textbook" way does not translate to my faith in the results to the degree you think it should.

You've made a very good case for why the prosecution should win. That's not exactly the same thing as a solid case for why it will. The system is broken, that's the whole point. And in broken systems the system always looks like its going to work... right up until it doesn't. If a good lawyer was all it took black people would have a lot more justice then they do.

Sure, not a lot to argue with, but I also have faith in the jury as humans. I don't believe the mere location they live in is indicative of automatic racism.

Like I said, I have no doubts at all that there will be massive prison sentences handed out. I'll be shocked if the father and Roddie don't die in prison. The son might live long enough to get parole and see his kid on the outside before he croaks.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Hope you're right (no snark, no sarcasm)

 

[whoanellie]

I believe it was mentioned in a few spots. Diego's wife said she had him on video walking through her driveway, and then the last lady. I don't remember names now. She was the daughter of the other woman that testified and wouldn't shut up. She said she had him walking through her yard, but nothing ever happened.

I don't remember any testimony about Arbery walking thru anyone's yard.

 

[plague311]

*snipped for brevity*

I think Travis goes down for murder. I don't see the citizens arrest angle working.

There were only 3 women, one didn't really want to be there (she said as much), but one thing I'd like to note is those women were from his neighborhood. It's not like random women are lining up to defend these guys.

Greg just rode around in the truck, all though he did make a threat.

Well, and initiated the whole thing in the first place. He was actually the one calling to arms without having seen Arbery actually commit any crime.

We don't know if Roddie truck hit Arbery or Arbery hit the truck. He didn't really detain or confine him, other than maybe confine him to the neighborhood. He angled in front of him, but never said he tried to hit him or run him over. They willconsider that if not for Travis shooting Arbery these may be wrong but not rise to a level of a felony.

That's not the impression I got from the trial. Roddie said he used his truck to run Arbery off the road, and the ME lifted prints from both trucks. At least the prosecution made a damn good case of saying Roddie hit Arbery. Maybe he didn't, but like I said, that's not what I felt the evidence showed at all.

Then there is the question of whether their actions "caused" Arbery's death or whether that is all on Travis. They contributed to some degree, but maybe didn't cause the death.

Impossible their actions didn't cause or contribute to the death. The father initiated the whole thing, Roddie helped corner him (The father literally said they "cornered him like a rat"), so Roddie definitely helped confine him. Again, undoubtedly everyone contributed to Arbery's death.

For those two, some jurors maybe want to go with felony murder and some with full acquittal and compromise on something like attempted aggravated assault. I also wouldn't be surprised if they get felony murder, but I think that is a tougher call.

Yeah, I personally think the one with the best chance to get off would have been Roddie, but his defense spent more time crying about pastor's then defending him. I would have thrown the McMichael's under the bus, but they didn't.

 

[plague311]

I don't remember any testimony about Arbery walking thru anyone's yard.

I'm fairly positive it was Sube Lawrence who brought it up, but it might have been Diego's wife too. I'll see if I can dig up a transcript, but I probably won't put much effort into it. It's not a big deal either way. Being in a yard isn't a death sentence.

 

[Bob001]

.....
I'm not sure about the other two. One thing I expect they will consider is the question of what they would be convicting Greg and Roddie of if Travis had just stayed in the truck and nobody got killed. In that circumstance, would they really be convicting them of these serious felonies?
.....

If nobody got killed, nobody would even be on trial now. But doesn't felony murder come into play? If Travis murdered Arbery, aren't Greg and Robbie guilty for participating in the chase? It's not like they were innocent bystanders.

 

[Cainkane1]

I live in Conyers Georgia which is fairly rural and African Americans jogging here is a daily event.

 

[plague311]

I live in Conyers Georgia which is fairly rural and African Americans jogging here is a daily event.

Yeah, I think the odd part in this situation was the 3 white men chasing him through the neighborhood for 5 minutes.

 

[plague311]

I'm not sure what her name is but Greg's team decided to go with the female attorney for the closing statements.

 

[Thermal]

Yeah, I think the odd part in this situation was the 3 white men chasing him through the neighborhood for 5 minutes.

Maybe a skoche odder to point a shotgun at him? Every culture has their customs, but...seems pretty odd.

 

[plague311]

Maybe a skoche odder to point a shotgun at him? Every culture has their customs, but...seems pretty odd.

Well, if this lady is to be believed, apparently the only way to keep Arbery under control was to point a shotgun at him. They really are pushing that citizens arrest angle, but I really, really don't see it working. The prosecution has driven that one into the ground pretty well.

 

[DevilsAdvocate]

I'm not sure what her name is but Greg's team decided to go with the female attorney for the closing statements.

Laura. That's Frank Hogue's wife (the ponytail guy who represents Greg).

 

[plague311]

Laura. That's Frank Hogue's wife (the ponytail guy who represents Greg).

Oh yes, I remember now that they were married.

She's not doing too poorly. I think she's drilling on the wrong points, but she makes a good connection with the jury. She's focusing on the science now more than the citizens arrest. Probably not a terrible tactic.