Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part III

[Vixen]

Here you go:

Not knowing exactly where it is situated on each ship is not the same as saying they do not have one.

 

[GlennB]

Stop telling lies. I said nothing of the sort. Only an ignoramus would make that claim.

You made that claim, which makes you - in your own words - an ignoramus. Or a shameless liar. How can you do that when your original quote is available in black+white?

 

[GlennB]

Not knowing exactly where it is situated on each ship is not the same as saying they do not have one.

Squirming, I see.

In "... prepare their fo'c'sle decks as helicopter pads ..." the word as means those decks would act in lieu of helicopter pads, otherwise you'd just say "prepare their helicopter pads".

 

[Vixen]

LOL. Curious gambit there of simply parroting the words I've used to describe (many of) your posts, and hoping it'll work.






Building ships does not make one an expert in knowing how ships sink. Next?







1. He demonstrably does not, if he thinks the Estonia should necessarily have floated upside-down for some time after capsizing.

2. It's not simply a question of me knowing better than him. It's a question of the actual experts in the field knowing better than him. And they do. They know that there's no reason why the Estonia should have floated upside-down for some time after capsizing.






...none of which has anything whatsoever to do with how much he would or would not know about the physics of the sinking of large ships. I know exactly what he did on the night of the sinking, and he did an exemplary job.

Qualifying as a Captain takes about six years, together with entry-level relevant degree, and in-depth inside out knowledge of navigation, naval architecture, mechanics, physics, charting, together with X years vocational training and leadership skills, usually preferably ex-Navy. Then factor in the intensely high competition for these limited place.

Or did you think it was like getting an Passenger Goods Vehicle licence and you are ready to drive a bus?


Oh dear.

 

[Vixen]

Squirming, I see.

In "... prepare their fo'c'sle decks as helicopter pads ..." the word as means those decks would act in lieu of helicopter pads, otherwise you'd just say "prepare their helicopter pads".

Yes, it so happens that many smaller cruise ships have designated areas that can act as makeshift helicopter landing pads in an emergency. Technically helicopters can land almost anywhere with a flat clam surface and relatively calm weather. The idea that helicopters cannot land on any particular cruise ship is obviously idiotic, as any wide open deck can be prepared.




This video gives you an idea of why bigger areas are best in stormy weather. Factor in a pitch black night and fourteen foot waves...

 

[Andy_Ross]

Stop telling lies. I said nothing of the sort. Only an ignoramus would make that claim. Keep your ill-mannered invective to yourself.

You said they would be making ready their forecastles to take helicopters.

Why would they do that if they already have pads?


All those anchor winches and capstans tend to get in the way up front.

 

[LondonJohn]

Not knowing exactly where it is situated on each ship is not the same as saying they do not have one.

No, Vixen. You were talking specifically of them preparing certain (fo'c'sle LOLOLOLOL) decks "as helicopter pads".

By which, you necessarily meant that the ships didn't have helipads, but rather they were going to need to press certain areas of normal deck space into use as helipads.

Whereas, of course, none of these ships had the need to "prepare their... decks as helipads". Because they already had purpose-built helipads.


Can you never bloody well get anything right, Vixen? And can you never bloody well hold your hand up when you're shown to have got something wrong? It's fascinating psychologically.

 

[LondonJohn]

Qualifying as a Captain takes about six years, together with entry-level relevant degree, and in-depth inside out knowledge of navigation, naval architecture, mechanics, physics, charting, together with X years vocational training and leadership skills, usually preferably ex-Navy. Then factor in the intensely high competition for these limited place.

Or did you think it was like getting an Passenger Goods Vehicle licence and you are ready to drive a bus?


Oh dear.

What?

As I've now told you several times, this is entirely moot. Because whatever this man did or did not know, he was/is demonstrably wrong if he claimed/claims that the Estonia should have floated upside-down for some time after capsizing.

The people who are specifically expert in this field know the truth of the matter. This ship's master (apparently) does not.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Same to you with brass knobs on. And don't forget to polish them.

Oh, and in future, try to accept being wrong with more grace next time. It looks childish and childlike to have a hissy fit when being found out to be totally wrong over dozens of pages, confidently claiming that the EPIRB's were manually activated only with zero citation or back up sources. What utter rot!!!

Again

The Government of the Republic of Estonia
Final report on the MV ESTONIA disaster of 28 September 1994

Chapter 8 Observations after the accident.

Section 8.11 The EPIRB beacons

The EPIRB beacons along with some liferafts and lifejackets were found on 2 October 1994 by two Estonian fishing vessels in the vicinity of Dirhami on the north coast of Estonia. The beacons were switched off when found.
On 28 December 1994 the condition of the above EPIRBs was tested by the Finnish experts. The radio beacons proved to be in full working order when switched on.
On 24 January 1995 both EPIRBs were activated on board the Estonian icebreaker TARMO, when they worked without interval for four hours. According to the Russian COSPAS Mission control centre, whose area of responsibility includes the Estonian waters, the radio beacons were transmitting the signal in the normal way throughout the test period.

https://onse.fi/estonia/chapt08_6.html#5

You have also been shown that the manufacturer designates the model you cited as being the one involved as being float free, not automatic activation.
That model has a different designation.

 

[LondonJohn]

Again

The Government of the Republic of Estonia
Final report on the MV ESTONIA disaster of 28 September 1994

Chapter 8 Observations after the accident.

Section 8.11 The EPIRB beacons



https://onse.fi/estonia/chapt08_6.html#5

You have also been shown that the manufacturer designates the model you cited as being the one involved as being float free, not automatic activation.
That model has a different designation.

The problem here is that Vixen is either unwilling or unable to understand the passage you quoted, and its necessary implications*.


* Those implications being: 1) the EPIRBs would have worked exactly as designed if they'd been manually switched on aboard the Estonia before it sank; 2) the very fact that the EPIRBs demonstrably didn't work as designed on the night of the disaster shows therefore that they cannot have been manually switched on aboard the Estonia before it sank; and therefore 3) no crew member aboard the Estonia that night remembered to manually switch on either of the EPIRBs before the ship sank.

 

[Andy_Ross]

If they had been automatic and failed to operate then it would have been an important discovery.

It has implications for every other buoy of that model in use by other ships.
It would have resulted in a recall and investigation by the manufacturer at the very least.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Vixen, I know that you are deeply wedded to the idea that the buoys had automatic activation, but can you address the irreconcilability between that view and the apparent unconcern in the whole shipping industry that this automatic activation did not work?

It is not believable.

 

[LondonJohn]

If they had been automatic and failed to operate then it would have been an important discovery.

It has implications for every other buoy of that model in use by other ships.
It would have resulted in a recall and investigation by the manufacturer at the very least.

Of course.

And it would have been a prominent finding in the JAIC Report - even though it wouldn't actually have made a material difference to the outcome of this particular tragedy.

Oh and if the JAIC had either been ignorant/negligent in its understanding on this matter - or, worse, if the JAIC had known about it but tried to cover it up or misdirect away from it - there would, beyond a shadow of a doubt, have been plenty that would have come out about it in the many years between 1995 and today.

 

[abaddon]

No, Vixen. You were talking specifically of them preparing certain (fo'c'sle LOLOLOLOL) decks "as helicopter pads".

By which, you necessarily meant that the ships didn't have helipads, but rather they were going to need to press certain areas of normal deck space into use as helipads.

Whereas, of course, none of these ships had the need to "prepare their... decks as helipads". Because they already had purpose-built helipads.


Can you never bloody well get anything right, Vixen? And can you never bloody well hold your hand up when you're shown to have got something wrong? It's fascinating psychologically.

One can see the "fo'c'sle" in many images already provided. Many of them have radar installed on them and a whole mess of other gear. Some of them are too small anyway. In Vixen's mad world, the crew would uninstall all of that gear and/or extend the "fo'c'sle" to accommodate a helicopter landing. While at sea. While in a storm. While ignoring the helipad they already have.

It's absurd.

 

[abaddon]

If they had been automatic and failed to operate then it would have been an important discovery.

It has implications for every other buoy of that model in use by other ships.
It would have resulted in a recall and investigation by the manufacturer at the very least.

If that happened, then the manufacturer would be facing an enormous legal suit.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

If that happened, then the manufacturer would be facing an enormous legal suit.

But in a parallel universe where the failure of vital safety equipment is considered just one of those things, nobody did anything about it. The manufacturer kept right on selling them, the safety authorities maintained their type approval, the shipping insurers kept accepting their use and the ships which depended on them kept sailing. Everyone just thought emergency buoys which don't work was no big deal.

 

[abaddon]

No, Vixen. You were talking specifically of them preparing certain (fo'c'sle LOLOLOLOL) decks "as helicopter pads".

By which, you necessarily meant that the ships didn't have helipads, but rather they were going to need to press certain areas of normal deck space into use as helipads.

Whereas, of course, none of these ships had the need to "prepare their... decks as helipads". Because they already had purpose-built helipads.


Can you never bloody well get anything right, Vixen? And can you never bloody well hold your hand up when you're shown to have got something wrong? It's fascinating psychologically.

For example...the Mariella "fo'c'sle" looks like this. Good luck to a crew trying to dismantle all that.

 

[zooterkin]

Re Captain Esa Mäkelä was interviewed in 2014 in his retirement by MTV. He believes Estonia should have floated upside down.

I doubt he meant that literally, just that he expected it to have remained floating, even if was not longer the right way up, and therefore he approached cautiously.

Captain Mäkelä doesn't believe the sinking was simply due to the bow visor.

And then explicitly mentions watertight doors being open, as well as the rough seas and the fact that the Estonia did not slow down as he had. So, he does mention several factors apart from the bow visor.

 

[Andy_Ross]

One can see the "fo'c'sle" in many images already provided. Many of them have radar installed on them and a whole mess of other gear. Some of them are too small anyway. In Vixen's mad world, the crew would uninstall all of that gear and/or extend the "fo'c'sle" to accommodate a helicopter landing. While at sea. While in a storm. While ignoring the helipad they already have.

It's absurd.

To be fair some ships do have a helipad up front.

 

[Vixen]

You said they would be making ready their forecastles to take helicopters.

Why would they do that if they already have pads?


All those anchor winches and capstans tend to get in the way up front.

I made a mistake about whereabouts Mariella had her helipad. I had erroneously assumed it was like Viking Sally's the scene of a murder in 1987, for which a Danish man, then aged 18-years-old was recently being tried earlier this year in Finland, now in his fifties. However on relooking it up, the area was actually to the stern of the ship although in my mind's eye it was at the fo'c'sle.

The couple headed for the open-air 9th deck at the rear of the ship, where they had earlier identified a sheltered spot next to the ship's helipad.

wiki

As second mate Seppelin of Silja Europa says in his police statement, the Europa helipad was roomy, safe and easy to land on. Europa was 60K tonnes, Mariella 38K tonnes, so it should be apparent which one is better suited to a rescue in hazardous weather.

IMV that would be more of a factor than Seppelin being first to be able to be heard by Estonia, although a superior radio system would also have been a plus.