Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part III

[Andy_Ross]

Yes.... but of course the bridge should have known that the ship was in huge peril well before the list got that severe. So therefore they should have been making radio distress calls well before the list got that severe.

exactly.
Hence my link to the report in to the Viking Sky emergency.

Contrast how quickly the captain declared an emergency, sent a mayday and prepared the boats for abandoning ship.

https://www.iims.org.uk/wp-content/...opulsion-and-near-grounding-of-viking-sky.pdf

 

[LondonJohn]

And here we go again - don't you ever listen?

OSC has absolutely nothing to do with the ship being more stable for helicopters. OSC is about coordinating the rescue operation. MRCC will assign OSC to a ship that is best suited. They will evaluate things such as:
* Previous experience
* Ability to set staff to the side just to coordinate the rescue operation
* Ability to communicate with all other ships and helicopters, on multiple different channels at the same time
* Personal knowledge of people involved
* Good place on board the ship where the OSC staff can work, with charts, radios, radars and so on, without disturbing the other work happening on the bridge.

Some ships have a dedicated workspace for OSC work. I'm sure MRCC had all these things in mind when then allocated the OSC. I'm also sure that they didn't care at all about the helicopter deck, since that has absolutely nothing to do with OSC. OSC is about leading, coordinating and communicating.

I've seen situation where the OSC is not even taking direct part in the rescue work. Basically all on the bridge were busy acting as OSC, so they stayed out of the way and focused on coordinating the work of the other rescue crafts involved.

And again, the initial coordinating role that Silja Europa took on themselves is separate from the OSC role that they later were assigned by MRCC. The major difference is - during the initial coordinating role they do their work without a formal mandate from MRCC - instead the mandate come from SOLAS/IMO regulations, and an agreement with the ships around.

At a later stage MRCC, when MRCC was fully involved and had taken over the overall accountability for the rescue operation, they assigned Silja Europa the OSC role.

Yes. It makes it rather difficult to have an educative, rational debate on any subject, when one particularly vociferous contributor a) doesn't know what they're talking about, and b) appears to have little/no capacity or will for learning, listening or revising.

 

[LondonJohn]

exactly.
Hence my link to the report in to the Viking Sky emergency.

Contrast how quickly the captain declared an emergency, sent a mayday and prepared the boats for abandoning ship.

https://www.iims.org.uk/wp-content/...opulsion-and-near-grounding-of-viking-sky.pdf

Yep, indeed. And you know very well what you're talking about.

It's just a bit of a shame that this one particularly egregious - and totally avoidable* - mistake, which had a near-certain direct effect upon how many lives were able to be saved that night, isn't even properly recognised or understood by the conspiracy theorists.....


* had proper procedures been followed in a timely manner aboard the Estonia, which clearly they were not

 

[abaddon]

Are you actually for real? Is this actually a poorly-programmed bot "writing" these posts?

Once again (for the 141,421st time)..... listen to the audio transcripts of the VHF Ch16 traffic. Or refer to several other reliable sources.

By 1.48am (or "0148" LOL), four ships were already converging onto Estonia's last recorded position, and at least two helicopters were already en route to the scene.

Do you genuinely not do any proper research?

From the transcript...

01:26.45 From: Estonia To: Silja Europa Are you coming to assistance?01:26.47 From: Silja Europa To: Estonia Yes, we are. Can you tell me if you have an exact position?

At this time we have Silja Europa, Mariella, Symphony, Finnjet, Isabella, and sundry others ALL diverting to the approximate location of Estonia seeking to render assistance and rescue whatever they could.

But no. To vixen, that is not a rescue effort at all. Not officially. Because it has to be OFFICIAL before it is a rescue effort.

 

[Vixen]

And here we go again - don't you ever listen?

OSC has absolutely nothing to do with the ship being more stable for helicopters. OSC is about coordinating the rescue operation. MRCC will assign OSC to a ship that is best suited. They will evaluate things such as:
* Previous experience
* Ability to set staff to the side just to coordinate the rescue operation
* Ability to communicate with all other ships and helicopters, on multiple different channels at the same time
* Personal knowledge of people involved
* Good place on board the ship where the OSC staff can work, with charts, radios, radars and so on, without disturbing the other work happening on the bridge.

Some ships have a dedicated workspace for OSC work. I'm sure MRCC had all these things in mind when then allocated the OSC. I'm also sure that they didn't care at all about the helicopter deck, since that has absolutely nothing to do with OSC. OSC is about leading, coordinating and communicating.

I've seen situation where the OSC is not even taking direct part in the rescue work. Basically all on the bridge were busy acting as OSC, so they stayed out of the way and focused on coordinating the work of the other rescue crafts involved.

And again, the initial coordinating role that Silja Europa took on themselves is separate from the OSC role that they later were assigned by MRCC. The major difference is - during the initial coordinating role they do their work without a formal mandate from MRCC - instead the mandate come from SOLAS/IMO regulations, and an agreement with the ships around.

At a later stage MRCC, when MRCC was fully involved and had taken over the overall accountability for the rescue operation, they assigned Silja Europa the OSC role.

Fair point. However, I recall understanding that Europa was the ship that had a large helipad, which seems to have been an obvious factor for making it the focus of activity, and as mentioned in the police statement of 1st officer Teijo Karl Peter Seppelin, who took the Mayday call. Europa was 22,000 tonnes heavier than Mariella. Some of these Swedish helicopters are huge.

In addition, Seppelin, too, had issues with channel 16 and 2182 and had to call MRCC by NMT.

(He said he did not notice any jamming though.)

Re Captain Esa Mäkelä was interviewed in 2014 in his retirement by MTV. He believes Estonia should have floated upside down.

Now Mäkelä is spending his retirement days in Dragsfjärd on Kemiönsaari. On Estonia night, he was ordered to lead a rescue operation.

- He didn't want to believe it at all. We thought there had to be some other explanation for the emergency call but that we had to go see it. Only then did I have to believe when Mariella (Viking Line’s car ferry) arrived and saw that the ship was lost and there were roaring and life rafts and more in the ocean.
Silja Europa arrived at the scene of the accident fairly quickly, but Mäkelä slowed down the speed of her ship as she approached the scene of the accident, as she thought Estonia was hanging up on the surface.

- By all accounts, that should have been the case. It should have remained floating upside down, which would have been dangerous for us. I had over 2,000 passengers on board myself.

"The cause of the accident is not just the bow visor"

According to Esa Mäkelä, the exact cause of the accident has not been determined, because the Swedish government has not lifted the wreck despite its promises.

There are similar storms in the Baltic Sea every year, so that alone cannot be the explanation for the sinking. Even the detachment of the bow visor would not have been enough to sink Estonia so quickly.

MTV Uutiset



Captain Mäkelä doesn't believe the sinking was simply due to the bow visor.

 

[Vixen]

From the transcript...


At this time we have Silja Europa, Mariella, Symphony, Finnjet, Isabella, and sundry others ALL diverting to the approximate location of Estonia seeking to render assistance and rescue whatever they could.

But no. To vixen, that is not a rescue effort at all. Not officially. Because it has to be OFFICIAL before it is a rescue effort.

Given that these passenger cruise ferries are huge, it really did need professional rescue and of course they had to make their way there, if only to help with helicopter rescue.

 

[abaddon]

Fair point. However, I recall understanding that Europa was the ship that had a large helipad, which seems to have been an obvious factor for making it the focus of activity, and as mentioned in the police statement of 1st officer Teijo Karl Peter Seppelin, who took the Mayday call. Europa was 22,000 tonnes heavier than Mariella. Some of these Swedish helicopters are huge.

Nope. You denied they had any helipad at all. Now you are trying to back out of that claim. And those helicopters are huge? Check out which choppers were involved. You do know which helicopters were involved, right? So you must have assessed their size, right?

In addition, Seppelin, too, had issues with channel 16 and 2182 and had to call MRCC by NMT.

But we have the recordings that you have not listened to.

(He said he did not notice any jamming though.)

Why did he notice no Russian interference. Tell us all why?

Re Captain Esa Mäkelä was interviewed in 2014 in his retirement by MTV. He believes Estonia should have floated upside down.

By that metric, so should the Titanic Remind me again how many car decks the Titanic had?

Captain Mäkelä doesn't believe the sinking was simply due to the bow visor.

He can think whatever he likes. Facts do not care about opinions.

 

[abaddon]

Given that these passenger cruise ferries are huge, it really did need professional rescue and of course they had to make their way there, if only to help with helicopter rescue.

Orly? All those 29 vessels were just give the accident scene a shufti? Just going for a look, right? Those slab sided ferries couldn't possibly pluck anyone from the sea, right? They just cannot possibly do it, it's impossible to do that, right?

Be careful with your answer.

 

[Vixen]

Nope. You denied they had any helipad at all. Now you are trying to back out of that claim. And those helicopters are huge? Check out which choppers were involved. You do know which helicopters were involved, right? So you must have assessed their size, right?

But we have the recordings that you have not listened to.

Why did he notice no Russian interference. Tell us all why?

By that metric, so should the Titanic Remind me again how many car decks the Titanic had?

He can think whatever he likes. Facts do not care about opinions.

Nonsense. All passenger cruise ferries have a helipad.

You can see the full list of helicopters in Chapter 7 of the JAIC report. They include Super Pumas.

The first scene of the accident was at three o'clock a Super Puma rescue helicopter from Turku. It picked up 35 people from the sea in the first couple of hours. A total of 140 people were rescued during the day, according to the evening's data.

HS

 

[Vixen]

Orly? All those 29 vessels were just give the accident scene a shufti? Just going for a look, right? Those slab sided ferries couldn't possibly pluck anyone from the sea, right? They just cannot possibly do it, it's impossible to do that, right?

Be careful with your answer.

Silja Europa rescued just one person. Mariella rescued 'about 40' (Thörnroos).

Truth is these vessels are as tall as an apartment block. Getting people out of the sea at that height - if they could even see them - was extremely hazardous.

However, forty-one is better than none at all.

 

[Here_to_learn]

Given that these passenger cruise ferries are huge, it really did need professional rescue and of course they had to make their way there, if only to help with helicopter rescue.

If only to help...

Ok. Let's leave the Rescue to the "professionals" as you say. How many would you estimate could have been saved without the ships there , meaning that helicopters would go back to the mainland with the persons they got out of the water?

If only to help...

SAR at sea requires you to be on site. And it takes a long time to get on site, due to distances involved and the relatively slow speed you can move. This is the reason why you are required by law to assist a ship at sea but we don't have the same type of laws on land.

If only to help...

What an absolute horrible way to describe all the professional seamen and women that at great effort and great risk to themselves performe rescue operations across all the waters of the earth.

If only to help...

 

[Vixen]

EPIRB's

As I already stated, at least one of Estonia's EPIRB was mandatorily automatically designed to activate on submersion with water.

Mikko Montonen is more concerned about where the ship's epirb buoys disappeared. "The buoys had been serviced a couple of months ago. There were two of them and they should have been placed in the superstructures of the ship so that at least one of them would float free, no matter which ship crashed on either side," Montonen wonders.
<snip>

"Based on its line, the buoy should pop to the surface, we had earlier thought it was unsuccessful there." The Epirb buoy activates in the water and sends a name and location message to satellites that transmit the message to a ground station, in the case of the Baltic Sea, to Bodo in Norway. From there, the message goes to the nearest maritime rescue center. Although the route sounds complicated, the message goes in a few seconds.

HS

When they they were found as reported 13.12.1994:

TALLINN - Satellite passenger buoys (EPIRBs) on the Estonian passenger ferry have been found, the Estonian Ministry of Transport announced on Monday. Experts are now investigating why the buoys were not operating at the time of the accident. The radio transmitters in the buoys should have automatically reported the exact position of the vessel via satellites after being submerged. The satellite buoys were found as early as Saturday and were transported to the Estonian Maritime Administration. The Estonian news agency's EEA telegram did not mention where the buoys were found (STT).

Helsingin Sanomat

25 Jan 1995 The testing:

TALLINN - Car Ferry The Estonian EPIRB satellite buoys were operational, although for some reason the message they sent automatically did not progress to the alarm system. Estonian and Finnish experts tested buoys detached from sunken Estonia on Tuesday at the icebreaker Tarmo. According to Estonian radio, the buoys sent a four-hour radio message that should arrive via satellite at the ground station. Next, we want to investigate the operation of the ground stations to find out where the auto-triggered alarm message disappeared. Satellite alerts in the Baltic Sea area will be received at Bodö, Norway, which will transmit the information to the nearest maritime rescue center. Satellite alerts in the Baltic Sea may also be printed in Falmouth, England, or Toulouse, France. In connection with the Estonian accident, the absence of a satellite alarm was puzzling. The buoys were later found stranded off the coast of Estonia. JORMA ROTKO

HS


These news reports should dispel any further disinformation (ignorance?) that they were 'manual-activation-only' models.

Mikko Montonen was the MRCC commander the night of the accident.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Given that these passenger cruise ferries are huge, it really did need professional rescue and of course they had to make their way there, if only to help with helicopter rescue.

Until daylight helicopters were of limited value.

 

[abaddon]

Nonsense. All passenger cruise ferries have a helipad.

Did you forget that you claimed that they didn't have helipads and thus would have to clear the fo'c'sle?

You made that claim, remember?

Now you are claiming they all have a helipad.

Can you resolve those claims? Of course not.

You can see the full list of helicopters in Chapter 7 of the JAIC report. They include Super Pumas.

HS

You can have a million helicopters. That is irrelevant to the number of helipads required. One might think that aa accountant could at least add. Alas, it seems not so.

Also, the super Puma is not the largest involved in the operation. You have no clue about that.

Measure frome the fullest extent of the forward rotor to the fullest extent of the rearward rotor.

Then you get an effective length.

Pretty sure everyone understands that. Or almost everyone.

 

[JayUtah]

Mikko Montonen was the MRCC commander the night of the accident.

Did he know ahead of time what model of EPIRB was fitted on Estonia? Or was he, at the time, making an assumption?

In any case, the reason why the EPIRBs did not activate automatically was investigated and discovered: they were an older model that required manual activation, and they were not activated.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Nonsense. All passenger cruise ferries have a helipad.

So what was all your stuff about preparing a Forecastle for helicopters?

 

[Andy_Ross]

You can see the full list of helicopters in Chapter 7 of the JAIC report. They include Super Pumas.

HS

How big do you think a Super Puma is?

 

[Andy_Ross]

Silja Europa rescued just one person. Mariella rescued 'about 40' (Thörnroos).

Truth is these vessels are as tall as an apartment block. Getting people out of the sea at that height - if they could even see them - was extremely hazardous.

However, forty-one is better than none at all.

Europa was acting as coordinator and command.

How do you think a ship picks someone up that is in the water?
Do you think they put a ladder or net over and make them climb out?

What does SOLAS say about rescue boats?

 

[Andy_Ross]

As I already stated, at least one of Estonia's EPIRB was mandatorily automatically designed to activate on submersion with water.

No. you made that up. there was no mandate at that time for automatic buoys.

Float Free does not mean automatic activation
Float Free means they were not fixed systems that were part of the ship's radio outfit.
It does not mean automatic activation.

These news reports should dispel any further disinformation (ignorance?) that they were 'manual-activation-only' models.

Official documents and the actual testing say otherwise.

 

[Vixen]

If only to help...

Ok. Let's leave the Rescue to the "professionals" as you say. How many would you estimate could have been saved without the ships there , meaning that helicopters would go back to the mainland with the persons they got out of the water?

If only to help...

SAR at sea requires you to be on site. And it takes a long time to get on site, due to distances involved and the relatively slow speed you can move. This is the reason why you are required by law to assist a ship at sea but we don't have the same type of laws on land.

If only to help...

What an absolute horrible way to describe all the professional seamen and women that at great effort and great risk to themselves performe rescue operations across all the waters of the earth.

If only to help...

At the end of the day 104 people were rescued by helicopter and 34 by ship.

The rescue operation should have started with prompt evacuation of all the passengers and crew, then there might have been a better chance than just 79 passengers out of 981 surviving, bearing in mind young children were not even on the passenger list as they travel on their parent's ticket. That is the cold objective reality. This is why the problems with communications and the speed of the ship sinking should have been better investigated.

If only 300 people got to the upper deck, it should be obvious that these were the only people who could be rescued and yet less than half of them were, so maybe now you can see why every minute counts.