Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part III

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Vixen said:
I wrote very clearly:

"Jutta Rabe's Baltic Storm 2003 (available on youtube), starring Greta Saatchi as herself".

But then you knew that, didn't you.
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But Scacchi (not "Saatchi") doesn't play "herself", she plays "Julia Reuter" (a character based on Rabe).

If you're aiming to make the highest number of errors in a single sentence you're not doing badly, but you'll have to try a bit harder if you want to be beat (checks notes) your own record!
 
Matthew Best said:
But Scacchi (not "Saatchi") doesn't play "herself", she plays "Julia Reuter" (a character based on Rabe).

If you're aiming to make the highest number of errors in a single sentence you're not doing badly, but you'll have to try a bit harder if you want to be beat (checks notes) your own record!
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You are so clever.
 
Mojo said:
And, apparently, “as herself”.
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Yes, I did look at the closing credits but Scacchi played a character with a different name. Could be a fictionalised version of the "herself" Vixen said she was playing but I'm not interested enough to find out.
 
Vixen said:
Fact remains there are what looks like submarine tracks around the wreckage.
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What do "submarine tracks" look like? Can you provide other examples for comparison?

[I am assuming that you mean tracks left by subarine vessels, rayher than any tracks under the sea, so lobster footprints (for example) don't count]
 
Vixen said:
Fact remains there are what looks like submarine tracks around the wreckage.
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This entire shambolic digression is down to you failing to grasp that "submarine" in the original reference was used in it's original verb form meaning underwater and not to mean a submersible boat. There is nobody still unaware that this is the case so can we please for pity's sake cease to flog this dead horse?
 
Captain_Swoop said:
Why would you think that?
As soon as the mayday was received and the ships turned towards the Estonia the 'official' rescue began.
Europa volunteered to take the lead, the captain would have talked to the captains of the other ships and they would have agreed.

They did not wait for the MRCC to get involved. Suppose there was no contact with a shore station, what should they do, just wait?
There are international agreements on procedure, it is laid down by the IMO through SOLAS.
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The disaster commenced by at least 0100 latest. A mayday was not picked up until 22 minutes later.

The nearest ships, Viking Mariella, Silja Europa, who were nine nautical miles away. It was Mariella who responded first (not Silja) at 1:22:14 and again 1:22:34. No reply, so Estonia did not get the message.

A whole minute and ten seconds later, Estonia called again: "Europa, Estonia, Silja Europa, Estonia" at 1:23:11, no sign she had heard Mariella at all.

At 1:23:19, Europa finally seems to have heard. She responds: "Estonia, this is Silja Europa replying on channel 16".

At 1:23:26 At last Estonia has made contact! She responds, " Silja Europa'.

But did she hear Europa or was it another searching call?

Europa replies again, 1:23:33, " Estonia, this is Silja Europa on channel 16".

Reply 1:23:54 (we can't tell if Estonia had heard or not): "Silja Europa,Viking, Estonia" - still trying to establish contact.

Then at 1:23:58 Mariella chips in: "Estonia, Estonia"

At last Estonia seems to have made real connection: "Mayday Mayday"

This was at 1:24:00 - two minutes after the first Mayday Mayday (that we know of).

1:24:05 Estonia: "Silja Europa, Estonia"

At 1:24:07 Europa at last acknowledges Estonia's Mayday: "Estonia, Silja Europa. Are you calling Mayday?"

There is no response so 21 seconds later, Europa asks again "Estonia, what's going on? Can you reply?"

Immediately, as though seemly not having heard, this time we hear Tammes come on at 1:24:31 (taking over from Ainsalu): "This is Estonia. Who is it there? Silja Europa, Estonia.'

Europa replies at 1:24:40: "Yes, Estonia this is Silja Europa".

Estonia at 1:24:42: "Good morning, Do you speak Finnish?"

Having affirmed, Estonia then tells Europa at 1:24:46: "Yes, we have a problem here now, a bad list to the right side. I believe that it is twenty, thirty degrees. Could you come to our assistance and also ask Viking Line to come to our assistance?"

NB: by this time, it is estimated that the list was nearer seventy degrees.

The exchange goes on in this vein until 1:29:42, a whole eight minutes after first contact.

If you cannot see there was a shocking communications problem, with Mariella having to revert to frequency 2182 and ringing MRCC manually on a mobile phone, you are burying your head in the sand.

Yet suddenly from 0148, the moment Estonia disappeared beneath the waves, suddenly, communications run smoothly and MRCC Turku at last makes contact with Stockholm. Rear Admiral Heimo Iivonen did tell the JAIC there were problems with a Russian transmitter constantly jamming Channel 16 over the last couple of weeks.

No doubt you will come back with your 'everything was hunkdory' platitude.
 
Jack by the hedge said:
This entire shambolic digression is down to you failing to grasp that "submarine" in the original reference was used in it's original verb form meaning underwater and not to mean a submersible boat. There is nobody still unaware that this is the case so can we please for pity's sake cease to flog this dead horse?
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Citation please of what reference you are talking about. Show me where Stockholm Uni uses the word 'submarine' to mean 'under the sea' (as an adjective) and that this was a passage I was referring to.
 
Jack by the hedge said:
Yes, I did look at the closing credits but Scacchi played a character with a different name. Could be a fictionalised version of the "herself" Vixen said she was playing but I'm not interested enough to find out.
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Look, had I inserted a comma after 'Greta Scachi' then that would indicate I was referring to her. However, as the subject was Jutta Rabe then it referred to her.

The Saachi character was playing investigative journalist Jutta Rabe.
 
Vixen said:
Look, had I inserted a comma after 'Greta Scachi' then that would indicate I was referring to her.
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You're wrong. And her name is Scacchi, not Scachi.

However, as the subject was Jutta Rabe then it referred to her.

The Saachi character was playing investigative journalist Jutta Rabe.
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Also wrong. And her name is Scacchi, not Saachi.
 
Vixen said:
The disaster commenced by at least 0100 latest. A mayday was not picked up until 22 minutes later.

[...]
The exchange goes on in this vein until 1:29:42, a whole eight minutes after first contact.
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Up until now in your post, what you describe are basically facts. But next comes your interpretation.

Vixen said:
If you cannot see there was a shocking communications problem, with Mariella having to revert to frequency 2182 and ringing MRCC manually on a mobile phone, you are burying your head in the sand.
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Yes, there were definitely communication problems. It's obvious from the transcripts, and from listening to the recorded traffic that M/S Estonia had trouble communicating with other ships. Simple explanations for that include factors such as:
  • Stormy weather
  • M/S Estonia not being able to use their high-powered VHF-set due to power failure onboard
  • M/S Estonia transmitting with handheld low-powered devices
  • A potential panic on the bridge of M/S Estonia, making them less effective.

But then you start mixing up VHF with MF, and saying things as "ringing manually on a mobile phone" - how else do you use a phone? And you pretend that the timline/transcript you presented have anything at all to do with Silja Europa communicating with MRCC, which it doesn't. So you post facts about one thing, and then pretend that it confirms something else.

Vixen said:
Yet suddenly from 0148, the moment Estonia disappeared beneath the waves, suddenly, communications run smoothly and MRCC Turku at last makes contact with Stockholm.
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So since the problem with communication was between M/S Estonia and other ships, it does make a lot of sense that the problem does not remain when all other communication is between other ships, and between ship and shore.

Vixen said:
Rear Admiral Heimo Iivonen did tell the JAIC there were problems with a Russian transmitter constantly jamming Channel 16 over the last couple of weeks.
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In the Gulf of Finland, to far away to have anything to do with communication between M/S Estonia and the nearby ships.

Vixen said:
No doubt you will come back with your 'everything was hunkdory' platitude.
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No, we reply with facts, based on our training and experience, and based on scientific facts of radio wave propagation.

You however pretend that you never have received any responses and corrections to your errors, and keep posting your conspiracy theories.
 
On responding at 0123 hrs to the 1st Mayday call, the Silja Europa became the control station for the distress radio traffic.

Two minutes after receiving the 2nd Mayday call MRCC Turku began, at 0126 hrs, to alert the various groups involved.
MRCC Turku calls MRSC Turku to verify the ESTONIA's distress call and to alert coast guard patrol vessel TURSAS.

0129 The ESTONIA notifies the SILJA EUROPA of her position. Last radio contact with the ESTONIA.

0130 MRSC Mariehamn alerts the Åland coast guard area commander.

0132 The MARIELLA turns towards the scene of the accident.

7 minutes after the first mayday Europa has local command, Turku has alerted the groups involved and a ship is already on the way to the site.

Seems to me that communications were working fine.

Four rescue ships were on site within an hour and a half.

Margin of error on the timings is +/- 2 minutes due to differences in local timekeeping and logging.
 
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